A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

A special section just for steam engines and boilers, as without these you may as well fit a sail.
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DetroiTug
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Re: A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

Post by DetroiTug » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:09 pm

Bad idea to go boating alone, one can get in real trouble, real fast. If a person opts to, never venture out past an easy swim to shore and never in cold water. Swimming and boating alone are both very dangerous.

Around the Great lakes and inland smaller lakes here, they are continually reporting an other drowning. Sadly most of them are kids I think.

-Ron
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Re: A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

Post by barts » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:50 am

DetroiTug wrote:Bad idea to go boating alone, one can get in real trouble, real fast. If a person opts to, never venture out past an easy swim to shore and never in cold water. Swimming and boating alone are both very dangerous.

Around the Great lakes and inland smaller lakes here, they are continually reporting an other drowning. Sadly most of them are kids I think.

-Ron
All of us have different comprehensions of risk, and tolerance for different risks. There are people who've done solo circumnavigations in sailing vessels, and others who won't go out alone at all. We all have to chose our own path, but making that path as safe as possible is a good idea.

- Bart
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Re: A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

Post by DetroiTug » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:26 am

Quote: "There are people who've done solo circumnavigations in sailing vessels"

That's true, and they have a pretty good success rate. But they aren't boating like most do, especially around the Great Lakes here where the safety equipment consists of basic life jackets, a fire extinguisher and possibly a marine radio.

Well-equipped sailors have full life lines, tethers, Inflatable PFD's with Epirb, state of the art electronics and all sorts of other contingencies for and to prevent an emergency situation. They are well prepared and still they find a boat adrift occasionally with no one on it. Single-handing a trans ocean crossing, anything over the gunwale may as well be a fiery bottomless pit, fall off or become gravely injured or ill and it's over more than likely. I know its a test of one's self, but I see it as unwise to tempt fate. To each his or her own.

In Lake Huron a few years ago a young couple enjoying their new cabin cruiser decided they'd stop and swim to get cooled off, they killed the engines. climbed down the swim ladder and swam, seems safe enough, Investigators pieced the evidence together and apparently they didn't think it would happen, but the wind blew the boat away and they couldn't catch it, they both drowned. They found her body but never found his, the boat simply washed ashore. It happens just that easy.

When I was younger I did all sorts of things I wouldn't do now. I loved Indian artifact hunting on southern lakes and rivers in the winter time when the water was low and exposed old Indian burial sites and camps. I used to go out during the week in January and February when the water was at it's lowest, no other boats around, miles from the nearest person, ride 4 foot waves and high winds in a 14 foot V-bottom aluminum boat, no radio, no cellphone. Had a few close calls, once I tied up on the lee side of an island and the boat almost got away, I would've been stuck out there for who knows how long. Found a lot of nice flint pieces though.

-Ron
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Re: A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

Post by cyberbadger » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:14 am

DetroiTug wrote:Well-equipped sailors have full life lines, tethers, Inflatable PFD's with Epirb, state of the art electronics and all sorts of other contingencies for and to prevent an emergency situation.
I would say anyone participating in this very conversation is a move in the right direction. Just thinking about it, talking about it.

I started with this thread asking about what might happen to the machinery, especially boiler, when left unattended, but quickly it went to the human element which is fair.

In my instance I was on Chautauqua - while unfortunately Chautauqua does still claim lives it's actually when it's frozen that ends up doing so mostly nowdays - ice fishermans snowmobiles fall through sometimes. 30 years ago the sheriff would indicate whether he thought the ice was thick enough to traverse. Nowdays the sheriffs answer is always - no. Which I think is fair. You have to choose what is an acceptable risk for yourself.

Most of the time in Chautauqua during the day in season would not expect to have to wait more then 20-30 minutes for someone to lend assistance for a man overboard. And if now one shows up, if you can swim half a mile you can probably get to shore by yourself if need be.

That's a much different level of risk then going on the Great Lakes or inter-coastal areas. But I wouldn't want to say don't go, just make sure you understand the risks, have equipment and plans to mitigate the risks, and accept the risks.

-CB
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Re: A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

Post by DetroiTug » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:47 am

Wait, you're wondering what would happen to the boat if you fell off??

I can say with utmost certainty, if I fell off alone, I couldn't care less what happens to the boat other than the danger of it making a big circle and coming back and running me over in the water. My first and only priority would be getting ashore or being rescued. "Other boats around" is not always a good thing, many of the idiot Mastercard boaters around here would run someone over in the water. They drive a boat like they're on the expressway with the same level of awareness and courtesy. Summer is two months long and they spent a hundred grand on a boat that does 90 mph, and they are going to do 90 mph wherever they go no matter what :D .

My guess regarding the steamboat, it would run until it ran out of steam and fire or water whichever comes first. It's Hagerty's problem at that point :)

BUT, by simply taking along another person that can simply turn around and pick you up, all that nonsense and danger can be avoided.

Thankfully, I've never had an issue getting a group together to go out on the tug. I couldn't go out alone even if I wanted to, as it is not set up for single-handing at all.

-Ron
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Re: A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

Post by cyberbadger » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:53 am

DetroiTug wrote:Wait, you're wondering what would happen to the boat if you fell off??

I can say with utmost certainty, if I fell off alone, I couldn't care less what happens to the boat other than the danger of it making a big circle and coming back and running me over in the water. My first and only priority would be getting ashore or being rescued.
But then what. It's worth considering what is likely to be the condition if the boat operates alone without a responsible engineer for a while. So when you (hopefully it's you or one of your crew) get back onboard you can anticipate what your first action is - this is a contingency that's worth considering. I think it depends on the particular boat's steam plant details and obviously the state it was left in.

-CB
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Re: A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

Post by DetroiTug » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:04 pm

It's worth considering what is likely to be the condition if the boat operates alone without a responsible engineer for a while.

We had a similar "what if" discussion a long time ago at a meet. However it was what if someone stole one of our boats. The general consensus was they would probably run it out of water and abandon it. To just let it go until it stops: A VFT like yours and mine has enough water reserve, it would probably run until the fire got so low that it would no longer generate enough steam to turn the engine.

-Ron
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Re: A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

Post by cyberbadger » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:33 pm

Probably the nastiest thing I've heard off involved a traction engine and it was criminal if it was intentional... Unfortunately it could happen at a dock. Someone closed the two valves on the sightglass of a traction engine, and then opened a drain on the boiler. The next morning after all the water was long gone it appeared as if the boiler was full of water when it was bone dry. Luckily the engineer had a habit of proving the site glass and caught it before a match was lit.

There was also a traction engine that some vagrants used as a stove for a while. :x

-CB
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Re: A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

Post by DetroiTug » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:25 pm

That's a pretty dastardly thing to do..

When we shut down in the evening, steam condenses and pulls the boiler completely full as long as the bypass is closed. If we fire up in the morning and don't have a full glass, something is wrong. Also walking around in the boat, the water in the glass fluctuates.

Just to relate what happened to me and a reminder to always pay attention to the engineering duties. When we go to shows with lots of people and we're firing up, it's common to have 2 or 3 people firing questions which is understandable. To get rid of excess water as mentioned above, I kick the blow downs open and wait for the water level to drop to the top of the glass. One morning I got distracted and let every bit of the water out - had to pull the fire, wait for the boiler to cool down, pump it back up and start all over again with a new fire. I have steel tubes so it didn't hurt anything. I ignore people pretty much now while firing up, kindly telling them, I'll talk with them when I'm through raising steam.

-Ron
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Re: A question of a Lone skipper falling overboard

Post by fredrosse » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:29 pm

I have lost my level in the boiler when starting up just like Ron, being distracted by an onlooker's questions.

Starting with a full boiler (overnite vacuum allows atmospheric pressure to fully fill the boiler when it cools down, sucking several gallons of water out of the feed tank), I lite the fire and open a bottom blowdown which discharges just a trickle of water back to the feedwater tank, gravity flow only.

Then boiler temperature begins to surpass 212F, (100C) pressure builds up somewhat, and the sight glass can get lower than the reasonable level in a hurry. Easy enough to close the blowdown if the engineer is paying attention to the glass, but be distracted for a minute and the level is gone.
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