Newbie checking in.

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csonics
Anne from Little Britan
Anne from Little Britan
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Newbie checking in.

Post by csonics » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:20 am

Posted on behalf of 914Driver:

914Driver
Just Starting Out


Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 2

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: Newbie checking in.
Hello all,

I stumbled on to your site when researching steam engines for a boat. A fellow is selling an ex-Navy whale boat that's in my budget and I need more things to do.

http://albany.craigslist.org/boa/1233033822.html

My hobbies have always been around race cars, mostly Auto-X and track days, but I can't get the wife into it, I'm hoping the relaxed pace of a steam powered boat will get some family time moving.

The boat posted above is gutted except for a bronze rudder. My background is as a machinist, tool maker and quality control inspector, so whittling metal isn't a problem. Attached below are photos I took on the 4th of July at a local steam event, that kinda put a fire under my imagination. If you folks have any thoughts or suggestion on power plants, pitfalls to watch out for or any other guidance, I sure would appreciate it.

http://rides.webshots.com/album/573391922kAEako

Thanks and I look forward to hearing from you.


Dan
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87gn@tahoe
Full Ahead


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 148
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject:
Welcome!

Those hulls are great, stable, building platforms as long as the wood is sound.

What you need to think about is what ype of fuel you would like to burn, wht type of water you'll be doing most of your steaming in (salt or fresh), what type of boiler and engines interest you the most.

Any ideas
_________________
Wesley Harcourt
-S.L. Wayward Belle (Mr. Grosjean was/is a genius.)
-S.L. George H. Sandin (Father's boat. Cut my teeth on that one.)
-'64 Buick Riviera
-'65 Buick Special WAGON
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914Driver
Just Starting Out


Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Posts: 2

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:33 am Post subject:
Morning,

Fresh water sailing, probably wood fired. As far as engines/boilers, that's why I'm here. I don't know one from another.


Dan
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87gn@tahoe
Full Ahead


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 148
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:56 pm Post subject:
These are GENERAL statements

Firetube boilers are slow, but very steady steaming and you'll have more steam in reserve if and when you run out of fuel, they are usually larger and heavier (for a given HP), cannot be forced anywhere near as much as a watertube, can be more dangerous (when complacency causes accidents), Lower center of gravity (depending on design), and can be more expensive to build.

Watertubes can sometimes be finicky (depending on design), and they will have less reserve if and when you run out of fuel (due to a smaller volume of water in the boiler), smaller and lighter (for a given HP), can be forced quite a bit, less prone to catestrophic explosion (tubes will usually fail before main pressure vessel), and much easier to build (tube nest can be built with sc80 pipe fittings).

THEN theres monotube steam generators (lamont boilers kind of fit into this category). They're extremely light and small for their given output, built to be forced, VERY fast steaming, and the safest of all, BUT controls need to be a bit more advanced, and are more better suited to liquid fuel (though they can and have be successfully steamed with solid fuels by many boaters). Personally I would say that this type of boiler is for the crowd that is a bit more advanced.

I will post on engines tomorrow

wes
_________________
Wesley Harcourt
-S.L. Wayward Belle (Mr. Grosjean was/is a genius.)
-S.L. George H. Sandin (Father's boat. Cut my teeth on that one.)
-'64 Buick Riviera
-'65 Buick Special WAGON
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Maltelec
Site Admin


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 156
Location: Cumbria, UK
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject:
Wood burning is quite possible but you need to use the correct wood. Soft wood is fast burning with medium ammounts of energy, and hard wood is slow burning with lots of energy.

I would probably go for a water tube boiler for wood but you may find the steam production is very erratic.

Engines is another subject alltogether.

Typically you need 1HP for a 10 foot, 4HP for a 20 foot boat, 20HP for a 30 foor boat for decent speed. However I know of a boat with a 20HP engine in a 45 foot hull which does about 8 knots, and another with a 100HP engine which does 18 knots. You can imagine which one uses a tonne of coal a day.

Also remember that after the boat has reached hull speed (roughly 6mph for 20 foot) you then need 8 times the power to go twice as fast.

Engines come in all different shapes, sizes and designes. Everyone will tell you that the one they use is the best.

You have:

Simple (single cylinder)
Twin high (2 cylinders)
Compound (2 cylinders, steam into the high pressure small cylinder then exhausts into the low pressure big cylinder)
Triple expansion (same as the compound only 3 cylinders)
Steeple compound (same as Compound only the cylinders are stacked on top instead of on the side)
Uniflow (typically steam in the ends and exhausts out the middle like a 2-stroke)
V-twin, compound, triple etc

You can have a uniflow triple if you wanted, though I don't know if anyone has ever made a uniflow expansion engine (compound or triple).

Quadrupal engines are not too common in boats, the weight of them starts to outweigh the benefits.

The twin high engine is the easiest for manouvering. Most of them will start in any position and will reverse with the movement of a lever.

The single is the most basic and is a common type.

Compound engines are one of the most common types, with their efficiency (if you can get that on a small boat) and power outweighing the extra weight they need. However if the HP cylinder stops top or bottom dead centre, they often require a kick to get them started. Some of them, especially the larger engines, use a simpling valve to drive the LP cylinder to turn them over. However due to the compression of the HP cylinder it is not common for them to stop on TDC.

Triple expansion enignes, a 3 cylinder version of the compound, was the most common engine on large ships. They give impressive ecconomy for their size. The good ones use piston valves for the HP and IP and a balanced slide valve for the LP. Not so common to see them at less than 20HP on a boat.

Steeple engines are very tall because you have one cylinder on top of another. They also tend to be out of balance because you have 2 pistons and a large piston rod all moving at the same time. However they take up little floor room and can look very nice. I've not seen a triple steeple before but I am sure they exist. It is also possible to have a steeple quad enigne, basically the HP and IP1 in a steeple format and then next to them is the IP2 and LP.

Uniflow engines, claimed to be the best design (which is why not many people use them), are an excellant design but as usual pose other problems. The general idea is you put steam in the top and it exhausts through the middle. Thus you don't cool the incomming steam with the colder metal and you don't heat the outgoing steam with the warmer metal. You also have 50% less valves to move. The only snag with them is getting them started. Because you can't open a valve to let the steam out, you have to compress the steam/air which is in the cylinder. If the compression becomes greater than the steam pressure going in even a twin-high uniflow will not start. Most uniflows use a vacuum pump to suck the steam out the exhaust. If the pump is engine driven then you don't have a vacuum to start the engine with. Most people I see simply jiggle the valves to swing the engine over. Once running they are excellant.

V-twin enignes take up a lot of room and personally I can't see any benerift from them.
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farmerden
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Shawnigan Lake,B.C.
Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject:
Check out the"Rainbow" in the northwest steam society He has built an exact copy of the old boat .I saw it in the water last weekend.He goes everywhere in the Pacific Northwest- just pulls ashore at a creek for water
,takes wood off the beach, and goes for days at a time!
http://www.northweststeamsociety.org/Pa ... SSBrai.htm Den
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steamboatjack
Urchin


Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 39

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:06 am Post subject:
The reason Vee twins are popular is that they only have a single throw crankshaft, thus saving the making of a difficult item for many people.
Uniflow engines have the highest efficiency of all under the correct conditions as outlined by maltelect, as they can expand the steam in one pass there is no point in making a uniflow which has separate compounding cylinders. It is a pity that only a few are about on boats, Doble designed a good engine on this principle but found it was not suitable for car work although I dare say it would be great for a boat. A separate air pump or a steam jet air ejector would improve starting and/or there are various ways to limit the compression. A three cylinder with poppet inlet valves would be turbine smooth, I have one on the drawing board but no time (or money) to develop.

regards jack 8)
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87gn@tahoe
Full Ahead


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 148
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:23 am Post subject:
I have ridden in a few boats with poppet valve engines (including a 3-cylinder inline). The are very powerful, efficient, and great engines overall. A couple things I don't like about them though is the valvetrain noise (Like solid lifters on an old V8), and most are not aesthetically pleasing (but that is the owner's decision)...

Now as far as multiple expansion engines (compound, triple, etc) you will have to consider using a condenser, which adds some complication to the setup. you see, the low pressure cylinder will usually have SUCH low pressure that it is actually causing parasitic drag on the engine (i.e. not effectively producing power, rather sapping it instead). To remedy this, a condenser is used to condense the exhaust steam back into water. As the steam collapses (shrinks in volume) this creates a vacuum, which effectively sucks the piston on the side that the exhaust valve is open to, increasing the amount of work the piston is "doing".

There are several different types of condensers, from inboard shell and tube, to outboard (copper pipes running the length of the hull, cooled by the water your vessel is floating in), to jet (sprays water from the body of water you're in, into the exhaust, condensing the steam). In my opinion, the jet condenser is the best for a boat in fresh water, but the outboard is probably the least complicated.
_________________
Wesley Harcourt
-S.L. Wayward Belle (Mr. Grosjean was/is a genius.)
-S.L. George H. Sandin (Father's boat. Cut my teeth on that one.)
-'64 Buick Riviera
-'65 Buick Special WAGON
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87gn@tahoe
Full Ahead


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 148
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject:
OH, purchase Steamboats and Modern Steam Launches, any "Audel's" books, and back issues of "Funnel" from the SBA

AND start reading.................. Lots of useful ideas, information, and inspiration. Maybe read The Sand Pebbles while you're at it.

The info we have given you so far may make it all sound daunting, or like Chinese. All you have to do is just ask more questions, and we'll answer to the best of our ability or pass you off to someone who is more knowledgeable.

I think the easiest setup would be either a firetube or a watertube boiler with a single cylinder (simple) or a twin (double simple) engine, exhausting to the atmosphere (if you're steaming in strictly fresh water).
_________________
Wesley Harcourt
-S.L. Wayward Belle (Mr. Grosjean was/is a genius.)
-S.L. George H. Sandin (Father's boat. Cut my teeth on that one.)
-'64 Buick Riviera
-'65 Buick Special WAGON
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