Wheel steering layouts

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Anne from Little Britan
Anne from Little Britan
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Wheel steering layouts

Post by csonics » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:01 pm

Posted on behalf of P.F.Cuthbert@Classicfm.ne:

P.F.Cuthbert@Classicfm.ne
Steam on Deck


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: Wheel steering layouts
Dear Steamboaters

Please could I draw upon your collective knowledge as I have just realised that none of my previous boats have had wheel steering. Hanging the rudder off the transom on a couple of pintles is simple, but steering cables and such are clearly more difficult.

I enclose a couple of pics of a mock up I have made using stuff I happen to have to hand (rear deck framing removed). However, your suggestions for improvement would be welcome.

At the recent Cambridge rally, the boat on which I was stoking suffered a steering cable failure. The skipper was able to slip out the cable steering tiller and replace it with a more traditional long one. I'm not sure how one would do that in my set up.

What about quadrants? How exactly are they fitted and used? Should I look into that?

Regards

Pete

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mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:29 am Post subject:
Hi peter,

I would build a quadrant right on top of that bronze tiller.


I did the same and it works a treat.
The Wheel is on the gunnel.....push the top forward and you go to port, pull the wheel back and you go to starboard.

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The Quadrant is made of sealed ply. The mount was made by wrapping the bronze tiller in packing tape and useing it as a mold for thickened epoxy. I then through bolted it to the quandrant. It comes right off. I used a take up knot on the line to take up the slack.
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The wheel is an original Wilcox Crittendon, I found it broken and bent and spent some time rebuilding it. It is entirely reliable.

Where these systems go wrong is at the hub of the wheel. People try to staple them to the hub. What you do is loop the rope around one of the inner spokes. It will not move or come loose no matter how much slack you have in the lines. I set mine up 3 years ago and I have not had to touch it since.
I'll try to get another shot of the wheel this weekend Peter, to show you what I mean.

I would close up those hooks for the blocks and hang the blocks with removable shackles, so you can replace one blind....as unless your a midget...and your not, you wont be back in there once the deck is on. You will need a hatch of some sort too.

And +/- 35 degrees is as much as the avg rudder will do before they stall....you should put stops in for that. My quadrant hits the carlins at that point.

Dave
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mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject:
By the way,

you framed the stern the same way I did....You'll be happy with it.

Dave
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farmerden
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Shawnigan Lake,B.C.
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject:
The "Steam Queen" has a similar system with an auxillery at the engine so I can handle all the chores if necessary.One time the rope for a fender fouled the line ,flipped it off,and there we were just launched,the wind was blowing us ashore and I was trying to figure out what went wrong.All this time we found ourselves getting closer to the middle of a rowing regatta! Managed to get the ol' girl steaming in a large circle while i respooled the lines.All this happened because a guest put the fender in the wrong place. Now I have attached the fenders in a way they can't foul again. I've never had a problem before or since but did you ever notice you never make mistakes unless everyone is watching! I was interested in hydralic steering for the new boat. I did notice that pictures of one boat show it .It's the same boat with the offset engine that no one has mentioned. There's alot of inovation going on out there! Den
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mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:46 am Post subject:
Hi Den,

Been on board one where the rope was just wound around the drum and it then got wet and the result was no steering what so ever!
I had kid duty yesterday and couldn't get to the photo, maybe today.

I considered a teledyne setup but just seemed too modern.........
Much depends on the rudder design too as an unbalanced rudder requires a great deal of torque to turn.

I'll throw a shot of the rudder in for good measure......

Peter, the other problem with that approach is that your line will be taught on the ends and slack in the center due to geometry. For smallish angles that's OK, but a quadrant solves that problem.

Dave
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P.F.Cuthbert@Classicfm.ne
Steam on Deck


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:51 am Post subject:
Dear Dave, Den and Fellow Steamboaters

Thanks for all the comments and photos.

I am not quite sure how the quadrant works in detail. Below is a quick and dirty (using Paint!) sketch of what I presume is the geometry. On the Rose hull with its diminutive size, the quadrant cannot be that many degrees of arc, or it will have no room to turn.

Once again I look forward to having my ignorance illuminated.

Regards

Pete

PS My photos were of a mock up using workshop junk. Somehow I don’t think brass cup hooks would really be up to the job for real!

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mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:42 am Post subject:
Peter,

Your sketch is basically how I did mine......I will post them later.

The quadrant should have a pair of "pulley flanges" to keep the rope from coming off....I anchored the rope at the quadrant by drilling holes the size of the rope and passing it through to the hole and tieing a knot.


The size of the quadrant will be decided by the required torque to turn the rudder.....with a balanced rudder, it will take very little torque and you can use a small radiused quadrant...giving you the angle you need.

The quadrant only needs to be about 80 degrees of total arc for full swing...your sketch looks about right...

Dave
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steamboatjack
Urchin


Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 39

Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 1:02 pm Post subject:
All these bits of string & wood, well ok but my boat has hydraulic steering, fit it and forget it (almost). If the tiller part is out of sight the wheel part can be made to look traditional. Available from Vetus (holland) dealers in UK.
regards jack
8)
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mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:27 am Post subject:
Yea I know what you mean Jack..they are low maintenance.....I was torn....but my boat wasn't big enough or had enough deck to cover the hydraulic one....... ....my wooden boat friends would protest too much too.

Peter, they sell the hydraulic ones because they work.. ...it's your choice, but you could do far worse than a hydraulic system and they are reliable.

Dave
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DetroiTug
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Outside Detroit
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:58 am Post subject:
I'm going to use a vintage Wilcox Crittendon helm with a sprocket and roller chain, down to a right angle gear box, then just a 1/2" water pipe off of a pittman arm back to the rudder arm. My old Chris Craft has something similar, less the chain, works great.

Should look pretty cool too. Wish I could find a brass roller chain somewhere. Could get it brass plated..

Ron
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farmerden
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Shawnigan Lake,B.C.
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject:
here are the pictures I took of "Steam Queen's" quadrant .If they work Thanks Simon-If they don't "Help Simon" Den


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farmerden
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Shawnigan Lake,B.C.
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject:
Strange-I only got two of five-well here goes!
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farmerden
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Shawnigan Lake,B.C.
Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:51 pm Post subject:
Sorry I messed up your site Simon! All the pictures are there -you just have to scroll sideways! Everyone else goes up and down -cept me-Is it something about being on the other side of the globe?? Feel free to correct it .Thanks Simon Den
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mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject:
Here's some of the photo's of my setup...It would appear that I missed the underside of the deck carlin when I primed everything

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The knots are just bowlines with the far end on one used as a purchase with a few half hitches.....hasn't budged since I put it in. The rudder moves with one finger regardless of how fast I am going and the wheel stays where ever you put it.

Dave
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Maltelec
Site Admin


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 156
Location: Cumbria, UK
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:42 am Post subject:
At the end of the day the whole idea of a quadrant is to keep the tension on the steering chain at the same tension all the time.

I know the steamboat Ursula uses a push rod though a tube (like a bike brake) only this one is strong enough to push as well as pull.
_________________
I've got the vehicle , just need the boat.

DetroiTug
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Outside Detroit
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject:
Here is the wheel I plan on using.

-Ron


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mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject:
OOOOOH that is Pretty!

much bigger than mine.....Mine was missin all but one of the 6 handles.....So I am not really sure if the handle was original, but from old catalog prints mine looks right....I like yours better though

Mine was also bent across the diameter, but the hub was good as well as the spindle....so I straightened it out and made new handles from file handles. The screws are 5/16 bronze bolts...per the one original.

Dave
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farmerden
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Shawnigan Lake,B.C.
Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject:
Like Dave says That's nice stuff.Don't hand out your address!! Den
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DetroiTug
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Outside Detroit
Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:41 am Post subject:
Thanks for the compliments. I just need to attach a boat to that now.

It was in really bad shape when I got it, all the handles were gone, one handle screw was missing, it was warped and bent badly, the bronze shaft going through it had about .1" play in it, Which means soembody was using it like that.

I straightened it all out and sandblasted the main casting, polished the wheel. Machined a new shaft out of stainless, reamed and put in oil-lite bushings. The handles were made from some Honduran mahogany, and machined them in the CNC lathe ( I know that's cheating

Ron
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P.F.Cuthbert@Classicfm.ne
Steam on Deck


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:51 am Post subject:
Dear Everybody

Thanks for all the photos. Oh, the simplicity of it!

I will head for the scrap pile and see if I can mock up something similar...

Best wishes

Pete
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Steve Morrison
Just Starting Out


Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 6

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: Brass chain
Look for brass (colored) chain at a bicycle shop. Sedis of France makes it and probably others. Sprockets are either brass coated steel or duraluminum. The chain is smaller than that pictured, but plenty stroung.

I plan to put a wheel on my boat. I can see it will be fun trying to put it together thru the 3" hole I've got in the deck.

Steve
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mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject:
Thanks Steve!

Hey Peter.......How did you make out with your mock up?

Dave
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DetroiTug
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 73
Location: Outside Detroit
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:23 am Post subject:
Steve,

Thanks for the heads up on that.

I'm definitely wanting to use the sprocket that is already on it. I may take some steel chain and try to get it brass plated.

Ron
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