Boilers???

Moderator: csonics

Post Reply
User avatar
csonics
Anne from Little Britan
Anne from Little Britan
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:17 pm
Boat Name: No Boat Yet
Location: Roseville, MN
Contact:

Boilers???

Post by csonics » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:11 pm

Posted on behalf of marinesteam:

marinesteam
Lighting the Boiler


Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Colorado, USA
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: Boilers???
I'm still a very far away from needing to decide on boiler choices but thought I'd mull some ideas over while building the York engine and looking at hull designs.

I'm currently strongly leaning toward a water tube design but would like to get some input into design choice from the group. Here are the design criteria so far:

Engine: York compound 3 x 5.25 x 3.75

Hull: TBD (most likely something very similar to the Elliot Bay Fantail. I'm looking at the study plans for the 23' Bolger fantail and may do some slight mods to the sheer to suit my eye.)

Boiler: Looking at a Ofleld or Blackstaff water tube.

Fuel: Wood and possibly wood pellets and/or charcoal lumps. Does any one have experience using wood pellets or charcoal briquette (BBQ)?

The Blackstaff as written in "Steamboats and Modern Steam Launches" is designed for a 18' hull and a simple engine. The SBA boiler design service has two sizes listed the larger of which is 25 square feet. Is this boiler appropriate for my engine and hull size? It looks close according to the rule of thumb I have seen.

There is a mention of an Ofeldt style boiler (Lune Valley, I think) in the Funnel being fired on wood. It looks like this design is usually fired with liquid fuel, I would assume that there are design changes needed for wood firing and is there an available copy of such a design?

Thanks


Ken
Colorado, USA
Back to top


87gn@tahoe
Full Ahead


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 148
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject:
I have only seen the York coupled with "roberts" style watertube boilers, not that that should mean anything in your decision.

John York originally had his engine coupled to a 40sq ft dryback scotch, he then went to a "Roberts" of *i think* 50sq ft. Another friend of mine has a York compound coupled to a 60sqft "roberts"

I have always been a strong proponent of much more boiler than what is required by the engine. That way things don't have to be forced. Personally, I wouldn't go with less than 40sqft for that engine. Having seen what that engine is capable of, it would be a shame to choke it with a boiler which is too small or just barely capable.

I think you will find that with a "Roberts" you can get more sq ft into the same space as the "blackstaffe" design, using the same triangular drum layout.

Oldfelts are fast steaming, but I've always noticed they were a bit more unstable and required much more attention.. I think that was mainly due to the smaller volume of water held in the boiler itself at any one time. All of the oldfelts I have seen were liquid fired and most had automatic feedwater controls of some sort.

I am sure others will chime in and give you more insight.
_________________
Wesley Harcourt
-S.L. Wayward Belle (Mr. Grosjean was/is a genius.)
-S.L. George H. Sandin (Father's boat. Cut my teeth on that one.)
-'64 Buick Riviera
-'65 Buick Special WAGON

Last edited by 87gn@tahoe on Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top


P.F.Cuthbert@Classicfm.ne
Steam on Deck


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:44 pm Post subject: The Blackstaff Horizontal Boiler
Dear Ken

You have probably spotted it, but there is a lot of useful discussion of the Blackstaff design in an earlier part of this Forum (Engines & Boilers).

I think that Jack's suggestion of using a non welded design has much merit. I'm making very slow progress with my own Blackstaff and that is because I have to depend upon others. I would not wish to make any criticism of those folks as they are all doing things for me from of sheer love of steam. However, I could have done a lot more of a non-welded boiler for myself I suspect.

One advantage of choosing an SBA design is that they are all engineering assessed. That should make for a safer boiler, provided any welding is done by a coded welder. The disadvantage of the SBA designs are the price and the fact that they are all for pressure vessels only. There appears to be a shortage of drawings for the casings, of which the Blackstaff is a case in point. I have had to rectify that omission myself, and it will be interesting to see if my efforts at design are both buildable and effective in operation.

Best wishes

Pete
Back to top


mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:45 pm Post subject:
My 18 sq foot Blackstaffe seems a good match for my 1.5" x 3.0" x 2.5" compound with maximum cut-off of 75%.

They are twitchy on solid fuel and will draft like a horse!

They need hot feedwater and they are subject to "swell and shrink" when cold water is introduced by a handpump ( water level drops in glass after cold water is put in to the boiler and then a few seconds later, the level shows high water. This with a water column! This is due to violent circulation due to the cold water.)

Make sure you put an economizer on her and a feed water heater if you can. Mine likes that, as well as the injector, which will tame the beast in a few seconds when you have the hounds of hell in the firebox and you just came into the slip and the safety is barking.

I use a Superscale Locomotive works "Economy" injector with their injector starting valve. I have a inline gas filter in the water line before the injector and she will lift and work from 45 to 160. Just adjust the water flow.

I am uping the diameter of my ram pump to allow for full throttle and stack blower. All of my boiler feed goes through the feedwater heater and then to the economizer, so it's better to max this flow out. My handpump is big and is really meant to be back up.

I burn wood......huum "Biomass" ,.....my term for old pallets, but I think she would run better on soft coal....but as 87gn has commented, they are a handful!

Dave
Back to top


marinesteam
Lighting the Boiler


Joined: 28 Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Colorado, USA
Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject:
Ok,

Maybe I am asking the wrong question.

First, let me see if these are generally correct statements:

Watertube boilers are lighter and steam fast but are temperamental when subjected to a heat source that is not consistent....Better with oil or coal than with wood.

If I want to fire with wood and have a boiler that is less in need of constant attention I should find one that has a larger volume of water at the expense of less time from light up to pop off.

Third on my list was a side fired locomotive design, any one have any comments or suggestions. And it looks like the loco-2 design in the SBA site is about the right size, can anyone verify this before I buy the CD, it just takes a long time to to get to the US.

Thanks
Back to top


mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:00 pm Post subject:
Hi Marinesteam,

What I think you should have is along the lines of a Roberts but with a good sized main drum that holds some water. The choice is yours from there.

My boiler is a bit touchy because it only holds two gallons of water ( 16 pounds) but makes over 50-100 pounds an hour of steam......it's a handfull to control.

As to the SBA designs, I have not seen them, so I am not much help but would like to see a picture of them if possible......interesting study.


Dave
Back to top


87gn@tahoe
Full Ahead


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 148
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:03 pm Post subject:
Personally, I wouldnt go less than a 10" steam drum on a boiler for that engine, with mud drums in the 4" range and a couple 2" downcomers... But I like big boilers, remember?

The larger the watertube (or any boiler in general, really) the more steady it will be to steam. You can steam a watertube on all the same fuels as you would a firetube, but the less volume of water the boiler holds, the quicker to fill, and to empty, it will be. Hence, my leaning towards large steam and mud drums, with large downcomers for good circulation.

Marine, I think your best bet would be to contact John York once again.

He is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to steam, and noone knows that engine and it's requirements more than him.

Be aware though, he can be quite opinionated at times.
_________________
Wesley Harcourt
-S.L. Wayward Belle (Mr. Grosjean was/is a genius.)
-S.L. George H. Sandin (Father's boat. Cut my teeth on that one.)
-'64 Buick Riviera
-'65 Buick Special WAGON
Back to top


mcandrew1894
Full Ahead


Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 149

Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:33 pm Post subject:
I think contacting Mr York would be a good Idea!

Dave
Post Reply