New member

Read this first then introduce yourself here.
simokaartinen
Just Starting Out
Just Starting Out
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:52 pm
Boat Name: No Boat Yet

New member

Post by simokaartinen » Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:48 pm

Hello,
Simo from Salo, Finland
I have never even seen live steam engine. Studied some some thermodynamics in university (well, almost master of science in energy engineering. Most is forgotten, it was a while ago). Now I am apprentice cnc machinist. Been working with cnc lathes for a year. I have access to school's cnc machines and material (don't know if I can get cast iron but basic machining metals are available). As a project I was thinking about building the mechinery for a steam boat from scrach. 2 person boat on river and mild coastal sea. Where should I start? I work in si units, but can understand imperial also. Wood as fuel.
RGSP
Full Steam Ahead
Full Steam Ahead
Posts: 246
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:12 pm
Boat Name: Platypus, Shelduck
Location: Very eastern England

Re: New member

Post by RGSP » Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:48 am

Welcome to the steamboating community, and this forum in particular.

It makes running a steamboat much easier if it can be put on a trailer behind an ordinary car, which implies a hull between perhaps 4 and 6 metres long. Longer hulls can be towed legally (and practically) but a heavier vehicle may be needed for launching and recovery.

For a start into machinery, you could consider buying a Stuart Models kit for their 5A engine, which will source most of the materials needed. Thousands of these engines have been built since WW2, and they (rightly) get a lot of criticism, but the point is that they do run pretty well, and give enough power to move the boats mentioned above around at low to moderate speeds. Once you have experience of building an engine and running it in a boat, you'll know yourself how to modify and rebuild the engine (or a different one) to make it a bit better.

I don't know what the legalities about steam boilers are in Finland, but you will certainly need insurance, and the insurance company will have rules about sourcing a boiler, and testing it from time to time. You may need to buy a boiler from a specialist company, or at the very least buy accredited steel and other materials and have some of the assembly/welding done by accredited people. This can often cost more than the engine.

Good luck.
User avatar
Kelly Anderson
Full Steam Ahead
Full Steam Ahead
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:28 am
Boat Name: Vividus
Location: Strasburg, PA
Contact:

Re: New member

Post by Kelly Anderson » Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:13 pm

Welcome aboard!

Stuart engines have a lot to recommend them, but since you mentioned scratch building, you might buy this book The Steam Engines of Ray Hasbrouck. It is also available on Amazon. Ray was an excellent craftsman, and his engines are designed to be built completely from bar stock, without needing custom castings.
Last edited by Kelly Anderson on Thu Apr 14, 2022 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It was not easy to convince Allnutt. All his shop training had given him a profound prejudice against inexact work, experimental work, hit-or-miss work.
simokaartinen
Just Starting Out
Just Starting Out
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:52 pm
Boat Name: No Boat Yet

Re: New member

Post by simokaartinen » Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:36 pm

In Finland boilers under 1.5 bar (21.8 psi) absolute pressure (0.5 bar gauge pressure) are not considered as pressure devices that need inspection. If condensator is used, that would give good enthalpy difference, even better if steam is superheated. Steam specific volume would be comparatively huge (low density). Has anyone considered this kind of approach? Would need some calculation and planning but possible maybe?
User avatar
fredrosse
Full Steam Ahead
Full Steam Ahead
Posts: 1906
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:34 am
Boat Name: Margaret S.
Location: Phila PA USA
Contact:

Re: New member

Post by fredrosse » Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:31 pm

"In Finland boilers under 1.5 bar (72.5 psi) absolute pressure (0.5 bar gauge pressure) are not considered as pressure devices that need inspection. If condensator is used, that would give good enthalpy difference, even better if steam is superheated. Steam volumes would be comparatively huge, but has anyone considered this kind of approach? Would need some calculation and planning but possible maybe?"

In the steam plant engineering world, I work with these pressure units quite frequently, and one needs to be aware of proper units when discussing pressures, and labeling them correctly to avoid misunderstanding.

I.5 barg (Bar Gauge pressure) is 21.7 PSIG (Pounds per Square Inch Gauge),

1.5 bara (Bar Absolute Pressure) is 21.7 PSIA (Pounds per Square Inch Absolute)

1.5 bara (Bar Absolute Pressure) is about 7.05 PSIG (Pounds per Square Inch Gauge),

These rather low pressures were used in many early steamboats, from the late 1700s into the mid 1800s. As soon as practical, higher steam pressures were used. Interesting to note that, arguably the most important steamship in history, the SS Great Britian, used only 5 PSIG steam pressure.
User avatar
fredrosse
Full Steam Ahead
Full Steam Ahead
Posts: 1906
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:34 am
Boat Name: Margaret S.
Location: Phila PA USA
Contact:

Re: New member

Post by fredrosse » Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:56 pm

Virtually all steamboats of today use steam pressures in the vicinity of 6 to 11 Barg, (90 - 160 PSIG), which works very well with engines exhausting to atmosphere, as well as with condensing service and vacuum exhaust.

If you wish to use very low steam pressure of about 0.5 to 1.5 Barg (7 to 21 PSIG), then a condensing steam plant with a good vacuum exhaust would be required. This type of engine has not been built for about 150 years, yet would still be viable for a steam launch. More modern steam engines are much more robust because they are designed for much higher steam pressures, and because of this they would be too heavy and would have too much friction to be practical for such low steam pressure.

If you are going to use steam at the very low pressures, then special design considerations would be required, and you will find ample help here to arrive at a proper engine design for low pressure vacuum service. Converting various RICE (Reciprocating Internal Combustion Engines) into steam service is a possibility for low pressure and/or high pressure is possible. Either high or low steam pressure is practical, although low pressure service will require larger cylinders and slower engine speed.

Please investigate the actual steam pressure you are legally allowed to use, and if possible to use higher steam pressure that is typical in today's steamboat practice, which would be preferred. Welcome to the steamboating forum.
User avatar
PeteThePen1
Full Steam Ahead
Full Steam Ahead
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:53 pm
Location: Aberystwyth, Wales, Europe
Contact:

Re: New member

Post by PeteThePen1 » Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:05 pm

Hi Simo

Welcome to the Forum. You have certainly come to the right place for advice and we have some very knowledgeable members who will always try to answer any question you have.

Can I also suggest that you might like to join the Steamboat Association (of GB) which is an international organisation and publishes a magazine four times a year. Members have online access to the magazine, as well as the paper copy, and the online PDFs can be searched by topic going right back to issue 1. There is also a Small Adverts section in which boats, steam plant and other stuff are offered for sale. At the moment there are lots of boats to be had for very low prices. Perhaps something like King Edward might be suitable for your requirements as it is a steam launch hull but with no steam plant. I think that the impact of Brexit has made the Pound Sterling weak against most other currencies so you may find that the boats offered are quite 'cheap' in terms of your currency.

Good luck with the Project and we look forward to seeing posts of how you are getting on.

Regards

Pete
User avatar
TahoeSteam
Full Steam Ahead
Full Steam Ahead
Posts: 813
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:38 am
Boat Name: Wayward Belle
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: New member

Post by TahoeSteam » Mon Apr 04, 2022 2:01 am

Welcome to the forum!

I think you're in the right place for marine steam, both on the internet, and geographically.

Finland seems to have a significant number of privately owned steamboats, both large and small. Most seem to have wood-fired scotch boilers and compounds with Stevenson -link valve gear. I'm envious of the sheer number of steamboats there. Someday I hope to make it to a höyrylaiva rally there.

Check out the steamboat association of Finland:

http://www.steamship.fi/

This family has been taking their boat to meets for decades and has many videos that I've watched over and over again:

https://youtu.be/YkNOMAayaLA
simokaartinen
Just Starting Out
Just Starting Out
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:52 pm
Boat Name: No Boat Yet

Re: New member

Post by simokaartinen » Fri Apr 08, 2022 1:48 pm

Oh yes, I have only calculated power plant steam cycles and didn't realize the cycle is usually at atmospheric pressure in condenser. Only theoretic understanding and no practical. Main benefit of low pressure cycle would have been diy boiler, but kind of hard to design all for a prototype. Conventional solutions will be the way to go.
Yes, I should really join the finnish steamship club Höyrypursiseura.
I work in company that makes hardened and black nitrated components for mining and forestry industry. Would black nitrading work in engine parts? Heavy wear and corrosion resistance would be beneficial, but has anyone any experience?
And yes, Salo is optimal location for steamboating. Southwestern Finland archipelago has many islands to explore.
And if you get bored with the ocean, you can go sail inland like all over the country.
User avatar
TahoeSteam
Full Steam Ahead
Full Steam Ahead
Posts: 813
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:38 am
Boat Name: Wayward Belle
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: New member

Post by TahoeSteam » Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:46 pm

Any advanced coatings and materials for increased component strength and wear resistance would be beneficial in my humble opinion.
Post Reply