Specs for my dream steam launch?

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Specs for my dream steam launch?

Post by Craig Thompson » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:42 am

I have been thinking a lot about the detailed specifications for my dream steam launch. I am trying to imagine just how I would use such a craft. I dream of exploring several large bodies of water near me, the Delaware Bay and Chesapeake Bay (central east coast of US).

All of these features and capabilities are very likely beyond what I can afford but I won't know until I do the research.

Here is a beginnings of the detailed specifications for my dream steam launch.

1. Hull length approx 22 ft: This might be a little too big but it is a starting point. It would be fun to be able to make trips of several days so a way to set up some bunks to sleep on would be a useful feature. I am not calibrated in judging hull length looking at photos but looking at sales brochures for small sailboats, it seems that this length provides for some minimal bunks. The ability to trailer the boat to lakes would be desirable as well. The hull would need to be seaworthy enough to handle the chop that can form in these bays when a sudden storm hits, as happens occasionally. Is that a difficult requirement?

2. Engine type: I am still learning about engines but it seems a two cylinder double acting would be appropriate. Do I recall seeing there are some spreadsheet calculations available to help in calculating HP, speed, etc?

3. Boiler type: I am still learning about boilers too. Fire tube? Water tube? Etc? I have no idea. I am thinking a recirculating system as these bays go from brackish to salt water.

4. Fuel type: How difficult would it be to set it up to burn fuel oil, wood or coal?

5. Fuel quantity: sufficient for a range of 60 miles or more. Is that unrealistic? For reference, the Chesapeake Bay is approximately 200 miles long.

6. Numerous other questions that I do not even know to ask right now.

My fear is that a craft with anywhere near these specs will cost too much and take too long to engineer & build. I am a Mechanical Engineer so I have some basic knowledge but will need a lot of input to perform a complete design. I am certainly not a master craftsman but I have sufficient wood-working, fiberglass fabrication and metal working skills to build a boat. Not including machining an engine that is.

It is time that I open the discussion. All of your input might not be what I want to hear but please be honest and direct with me. Retirement is not too many years off and this would be a most enjoyable activity.

Your comments and thoughts are most appreciated.

Craig T.
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Re: Specs for my dream steam launch?

Post by mtnman » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:00 am

Back in the planing stages, I read every post on this site. Really learned a LOT!
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Re: Specs for my dream steam launch?

Post by Craig Thompson » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:55 am

I can't say that I have read all the threads, but I have read quite a few, back to the earliest in this site.

There certainly is a lot of info recorded here. A lot to remember.

I do not recall reading any threads focusing on the overall design, the features and compromises as a complete system. I thought it might make an interesting discussion.
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Re: Specs for my dream steam launch?

Post by fredrosse » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:52 pm

1. Hull length approx 22 ft: The ability to trailer the boat to lakes would be desirable as well. The hull would need to be seaworthy enough to handle the chop that can form in these bays when a sudden storm hits, as happens occasionally. Is that a difficult requirement?
ANS; If you buy a classic launch hull that will cost several thousand. A far less costly route is to buy a used fiberglass sailboat for a song, and convert it to propeller drive. A 21 to 24 foot sailboat, with bad sails or a broken mast, with trailer, should cost no more than about $1200USD. Then you cut out the centerwell, or deep keel as the case may be, and fiberglass in a shaft sleeve (I use 1-1/2 inch PVC Schedule 40 pipe) , wood machinery stringers inside the hull, aluminum angle bilge keels outside the hull, thru-bolted to the machinery stringers. Now you have a seaworthy hull ready for the machinery of your choice. I would shop for one with something like a plumb stem to be more in keeping with traditional steamboat looks.

2. Engine type: I am still learning about engines but it seems a two cylinder double acting would be appropriate. Do I recall seeing there are some spreadsheet calculations available to help in calculating HP, speed, etc?
ANS; Look in the FAQ Section of this forum, simple arithmetic there will let you size up everything, the hull, horsepower and speed relations, boiler sizing, engine sizing, etc. Answers here are not up to snuff with real work of Naval Architecture , but will get you 90% answers quickly. Two cylinder double acting is very good for reliable reversing and reasonable power.

3. Boiler type: I am still learning about boilers too. Fire tube? Water tube? Etc? I have no idea. I am thinking a recirculating system as these bays go from brackish to salt water.
ANS; Again, see the discussions in the FAQ Section of this forum. Each type of boiler has advantages and disadvantages. A "recirculating" (normally pronounced "condensing") system is best for salt/brackish water.
My boat has a condensing system planned, but the large feedwater tanks I carry allow me to run at full speed for about 3-4 hours before I need to take on fresh water. When steaming in salt water, I just stop at a marina every couple of hours and refill the tanks with drinking water from a dock hose. Nice to take a break and show off the steamer, which always draws some spectators.
Operating without the condensing system for four years now, but I still plan to get a "round tuit", which is needed in order to run condensing with condensate recovery.

4. Fuel type: How difficult would it be to set it up to burn fuel oil, wood or coal?
ANS; Burning No. 2 Oil, you can use a pressure washer "hot box" burner, 12 volts, good reliable flame, but then you need big 12 volt power, and a burner that costs several hundred $. A well established alternative is a steam atomized oil burner, in use for at least 100 years. Simple enough, although a kinundrum of sorts as steam is needed to operate the burner, and without a burner, no steam! So an alternate method of getting up steam on startup is needed.

Wood or Coal, good choices, much less machinery needed, but you must attend the fire constantly, and have fuel stowage requirements that are much more troublesome than the oil. Most steamboaters opt for this setup.

Kerosene, with a Stanley Steamer type burner, a good, yet fairly complex system. No noise or electricity to deal with, but more temperamental usually. Can use gasoline here too.

Propane, I used a big Home Depot Weed Burner on 20 pound LP gas cylinders for years, worked fine, plenty of fire, but noise was an issue. Lowest cost and most simple installation. Now I have silent gas burners from a domestic heating furnace, works fine, and no more noise.

However many will shun the use of propane, and consider it dangerous, as propane gas is far more dense than air, and any leak will tend to fill the bilges with this heavy gas. The potential for a gas explosion under this condition can be high for those who do not continuously watch what is going on while steaming.

5. Fuel quantity: sufficient for a range of 60 miles or more. Is that unrealistic? For reference, the Chesapeake Bay is approximately 200 miles long.
ANS; You will be getting roughly around 2-3 MPG with oil, propane, kerosene, gasoline. That is 20 to 30 gallons of these fuels. Wood, you need about 400 to 500 pounds of it for 60 mile range, around 1/6 of a cord. Coal, twice the heat value, so half the amount of coal is needed, only 200-250 pounds required. Coal has a bulk density of close to 60 pounds per cubic foot, so a 4-5 cubic foot bunker will do.
Last edited by fredrosse on Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Specs for my dream steam launch?

Post by Lopez Mike » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:36 am

The idea of modifying a sailboat hull has possibilities and I have been looking in to it for some time.

One problem is that few sailboat designs are narrow enough. They have to be remarkably wide for sail carrying ability.

I have done some drawing and speculating and one of the most interesting solutions is to cut the hull lengthwise and throw enough of the center away to get the beam you want.

An example might be a Cal 34. There happens to be one in a boat wrecking yard near me. http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1292 Rough examples of these are being stripped and the hull thrown away in land fills.

The stock hull is 33' long with a beam of 10'. That's a beam to length ratio of 3.3. 4 to 1 would be much more easily driven and 33' is way too big of a boat.

To start with a radical example, we whack out the center 3'. This gives us a beam of 7' and shortens the boat to 23'. The original transom disappears and the beam to length ratio is now still around 3.3.

The next stage is to get more creative with the pencil and Sawsall. By taking out a wedge you can come up with all sorts of interesting shapes. One might even be able to end up with a fairly plumb bow.

All of this assumes that you will discard the deck and finish up by cutting a new sheer line, by far the most difficult part to do in an esthetically pleasing way. Also, of course, you will need to build a steamboat keel and shaft log.

With the price of resin so high, I think this sort of thing is well worth looking in to.
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Re: Specs for my dream steam launch?

Post by Craig Thompson » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:45 am

Reading through this thread again I realized that for fuel, I should have asked if Diesel fuel could be used, not fuel oil. I presume fuel oil, Diesel & kerosene are all rather similar. Diesel would be available at many marinas. Fuel oil probably not many? Coal & wood most likely none at all.

It is looking like fuel for a several day trip longer than 60 miles or so becomes problematic. Only a few options.
1. Pre-position fuel at selected marinas: this would require arranging delivery of wood or coal from a local vendor or delivering it myself. That is also assuming the marinas would be agreeable to such an arrangement.
2. Set up to run on Diesel fuel (or gasoline, or...)

Could the boat be built initially for wood / coal fired then add a liquid fuel system (Diesel) later? Would the fuel tank(s) be buried or built into the hull structure?

I need to really think this through. A multi-day trip with a 60 mile range just might be big deal.

I suppose another way to explore would be to trailer the boat to different marinas each day and take day trips. Not quite as exciting and romantic as cruising around the bay.
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Re: Specs for my dream steam launch?

Post by Lopez Mike » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:19 am

So far, burning wood has worked for meets and short trips, like 20 miles total. The boat doesn't look tooo ridiculous at the onset with al of the bags of wood stacked hither and thither.

Looking ahead, I will maybe want to travel further and perhaps be out for overnight, either aboard or camping on shore. The only solution that seems workable for me would to be able to change over to oil fuels when needed. Not when already on the water but neither do I want it to be a giant hassle.

The paint gun burner seems like a cheap and easy attempt. I've got a couple of elcheapo guns laying around the shop now. The problem is that I don't want to give up the heating area of my water leg in my VFT but I don't want to have the flame blowing directly on the relatively cool metal of that water leg and making smoke. I'm assuming a tangental flame path.

This cries out for some sort of wall made of fire brick or metal that is heated by the flame and transfers the radiant heat to the walls of the boiler. Sort of like Bart's design. Do I need the firebrick?

Has anyone seen anything like this? I'm thought out for now.
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Re: Specs for my dream steam launch?

Post by fredrosse » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:40 pm

Some Clarifications about liquid fuels:

On this site, for some reason the word "Diessel" must be spelled incorrectly, if you spell it correctly, then the forum program automatically changes the word to "Smelly long chain hydrocarbons" This is an inconvenience to many of us, but it is what it is. So when you see "Diessel", then you know what it means.

As far as liquid fuels go, No. 2 Fuel Oil is "Diessel" fuel. They are the same thing. This also goes by the name "Home Heating Oil". This oil is more difficult to burn than Kerosene, tends to smoke more than Kerosene, and typically works well in the electric driven pressure atomized fuel oil burners. As a side note, not really relevant to the discussion, most highway use "Diessel" fuel has a lower Sulfur content than Home Heating No. 2 oil, but the amount of Sulfur in the fuel has virtually nothing to do with the burner and combustion of the fuels. No. 2 and "Diessel" fuel were specified with less than 0.5% Sulfur a few decades ago, whereas now No. 2 Oil I think has a maximum of 0.05% Sulfur, and highway "Diessel" fuel has a limit of 0.0005% Sulfur, any of these limits have nothing to do with the combustion characteristics, only an impact on emissions.

These pressure atomizing burners work well because there has been much industry development to prefect these burners, as so many millions of these burners are manufactured. These burners also typically allow Kerosene to be burned in them. Gasoline is prohibited for use in the typical pressure atomized fuel oil burners.

There is also "No. 1 Fuel Oil", which is much less available in the USA, something between Kerosene and No. 2 Oil. We don't need to discuss that, as it is generally not available to us. There is also No. 3, 4, 5, 6 Fuel Oil, cheaper and cheaper oil with more and more burning and emissions problems, but those are also not generally available for our use.

These oils are more difficult to combust properly. Kerosene (what the British call "Paraffin") is a good choice, but availability can be a problem at marinas. Gasoline is universally available at marinas, but it is much more prone to unwanted fires due to its volatility and low flash point temperature. Using gasoline can he made safe, consider that probably 98% of all pleasure craft burn gasoline.
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Re: Specs for my dream steam launch?

Post by fredrosse » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:53 pm

"Could the boat be built initially for wood / coal fired then add a liquid fuel system (smelly long-chain hydrocarbon) later? Would the fuel tank(s) be buried or built into the hull structure?"

Yes that can be done. Fuel tanks would generally be stand alone items, either steel or plastic, nestled away under seats or similar. Built into the hull structure is a complication you do not want to have.
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Re: Specs for my dream steam launch?

Post by Lopez Mike » Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:31 pm

I have constructed built in tanks with a high rate of success on boats that stay in the water. The failure rate on trailered boats has been almost 100%. Don't do it.

I'd make then removable so that, when the inevitable gunk builds up, you can take them to a pressure washer.
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