Modern History

For the non-technical side of living with Steamboats, videos and general pictures.
Davis Dry Dock
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Modern History

Post by Davis Dry Dock » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:39 am

Good evening ladies and gents,

I've been flipping through the pages of Steamboats and Modern Steam Launches and have been trying to soak up as much info as I can...

But I was struck by two things: the seeming availability (for those willing to dig hard enough!) of well-built engines. In the classifieds at the end of each magazine, there seems to be no end of good stuff for sale or trade... Compounds, Singles, take what you want.
Where did all those beasties go? Did a lot of stuff get scrapped in the 80s and 90s? Is it all hiding in barns, waiting again for the willing explorer?

The other thing that I'm curious about are the whereabouts of all of George Whitney's boats. He was clearly a unique designer turning out very well engineered machines. Do any of them survive? Have any of his complete boats escaped the scrapper's torch? One would think that with people around him who understood his talent, there might have been some effort to preserve his output. Did he write things down? Is there an archive somewhere, public or private?

Thanks!

Happy steaming.
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Lopez Mike
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Re: Modern History

Post by Lopez Mike » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:02 am

Dunno about the Whitney boats except that you would be amazed how many hulls have died over the years. There are a whole bunch of animals out there for whom wood is food! The steam tug Moonlight is a decent example. It's bones are rotting in the mud near my house. I can go haggle off a hunk if you like.

I love wood boats but I am glad that mine is cased in glass cloth and epoxy resin. The maintenance to keep the fungi away from a traditional clinker built boat is not insignificant. Tommy Thompson's Fire Canoe is resting quietly in the woods giving up it's carbon to the the atmosphere as I type.

As to all of those engines, I've been wondering if it is mostly a case of there being a lot more steam launches now. In other words, the engines are in boats.

Added to that, some of those engines advertised were not that appropriate for our boats. They had been intended for stationary use in a period when efficiency was not that important. Cheap fuel and all that. We have become accustomed to having reverse gear and such luxuries. The newer designs intended for our hobby are often better.

There may be some hoarders and profiteers out there but I haven't run into them just yet.

It's not a cheap hobby even if you have a machine shop and have a clue about woodworking. Of course if you would rather build than steam then who cares how long it takes?

Now a saving grace for a newcomer is that we steamers are an aging cohort. We're dropping right and left! Bargains popping up fairly regularly.

Welcome to the monkey house.
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Re: Modern History

Post by TriangleTom » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:27 am

Keep in mind that wood is most definitely not your only option. Ron has a beautiful tug built out of steel, and has an excellent website showing the process here: http://www.rogersmachine.net/steamboat8.html
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Lopez Mike
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Re: Modern History

Post by Lopez Mike » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:11 am

Yes, there are several good ways to build a hull. Straight up fiberglass has been very successful and building a sandwich structure with FRG makes for a very light and rigid hull.

Steel is the material of choice for almost all large hulls. When you scale it down to our sizes there are some serious compromises. Ron? Fill in the gaps for me and correct my errors.

Steel is malleable, cheap and way stronger than we would every need. (As is aluminum) Corrosion problems are mostly an issue of coatings, electrolysis control and half way decent maintenance.

That said, there is one big tradeoff that I have not seen solved to my satisfaction. As you scale down the thickness of the plating, it's resistance to denting is seriously reduced. Even on big ships you see where the fenders have distorted the hull between the frames with use.

With a hull like Rons, if the plating was made only strong enough to stand the loads from everything else but ignoring banging against fenders and docks, could probably be made of steel so thin you could barely weld it. You would need to glue it together!

So to design a decently dent resistant hull there is a serious weight penalty.

Like everything, there are compromises. Not mentioned is the wonderfully cheap repairs to a steel hull and the ease of adding bits and pieces as you please.
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Davis Dry Dock
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Re: Modern History

Post by Davis Dry Dock » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:17 pm

Ha!

Mike: too funny. I’ll keep my eyes open and you let me know if you spot any steals. Thanks for the welcome!

As for steel hulls. I’m sort of in the young and stupid category, and I have this idea that I’d like a wooden hull. Maybe reading more will change my mind....

M & W
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Lopez Mike
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Re: Modern History

Post by Lopez Mike » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:24 am

Take anything I say with a grain of salt. I am very biased towards my own vision of what I want my steam launch to be!

Trailerabe.
Light weight. Burns less fuel and easier to tow.
Can haul a bunch of visitors.
Simple to operate and understand. I have two ten year old neighbor girls who are more than competent to deal with my power plant. They are, however, wild animals at the helm and know only one setting for the engine. "Damn the torpedoes. Full steam ahead!" Lookout gulls!

After those parameters come my preferences that I might modify under some duress.

Wood fired (cheapskate) As long as my neighbors keep rebuilding their decks I will have free fuel.
25 feet long. Plumb bow and fantail stern.
Stitch and glue construction. I used expensive plywood but I seriously doubt that box store crud or MDO sign board would compromise the integrity of the hull.
Glass cloth and epoxy resin on all surfaces. The plywood is just a core of a sandwich panel. Balsa or foam would probably do as well with careful planning for fastenings.
As silent as possible. Engines and pumps don't have to clatter and bang.
Stay away from any promises of revolutionary high speed counterrotating whiz bang power plants claiming impossible efficiencies. They are the path to frustration and do not lead to useable boats.

Look at and ride in a lot of different boats. There is no more sure way to waste money and be a pain in the posterior than reading one book and following the advice of one person. Especially me.

Oh, yeah. Watch the African Queen and The San Pebble more than once. "Main Stim Vauw!" "Devils in the boiler,"
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
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RGSP
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Re: Modern History

Post by RGSP » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:55 am

Lopez Mike wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:24 am
Stitch and glue construction. I used expensive plywood but I seriously doubt that box store crud or MDO sign board would compromise the integrity of the hull.
Glass cloth and epoxy resin on all surfaces. The plywood is just a core of a sandwich panel. Balsa or foam would probably do as well with careful planning for fastenings.
I've seen the result of GRP over poor quality plywood, and it was very sad: essentially a hull only fit for a big bonfire. The problem starts as soon as there is a tiny hole through the GRP, and moisture starts tracking along voids in the plywood and generally soaking-in along the way. Then the plywood starts to de-laminate, and if polyester resin has been used it may well start un-sticking as well. In the great scheme of things, the extra cost of good plywood isn't huge, and personally I'd always use epoxy for the GRP.

Incidentally, tomorrow is scheduled for steaming over 30 miles along a river network in Phil Webster's boat Banjo, built in 1897. Banjo has conventional carvel planking and frames, and is about 20' long and 5' beam: nothing surprising. However, the planking is of cedar and only 3/8" thick (and much repaired these days). She also now has a layer of epoxy-glass on the outside, and a solar powered bilge pump is no longer essential!
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Lopez Mike
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Re: Modern History

Post by Lopez Mike » Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:17 pm

I have seen any number of disastrous hulls built with cheap plywood and glass but every one was done with polyester AND only glassed on one side. As you say, the first flaw in the FRP cladding is the start of failure.

I have seen two work boats done with MDO (paper covered sign board). It is high quality fir plywood with very few flaws. It is used for things like traffic signage and lasts years in the weather with only the initial painting. Both boats lived a dog's life in industrial service. They were sealed in on all surfaces with glass cloth and epoxy resin. Worth looking in to. The difference between $120 U.S. for a 4 x 8 sheet and $50 adds up. My 25 footer ate up 13 sheets!

My total material bill for plywood, cloth, resin and supplies like sandpaper and solvents ran around 5K USD.
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Davis Dry Dock
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Re: Modern History

Post by Davis Dry Dock » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:42 pm

Hi everybody,

At least one George Whitney engine is still around, currently offered for sale:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1417117 ... 9486542210

I've sent an enquiry to see what the asking price is.
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DetroiTug
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Re: Modern History

Post by DetroiTug » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:08 am

There are some Whitney compound reproductions around.

Funny story: My buddy Gary has been in to Steamboating since Bill Durham was writing that magazine. When they put all the magazines together in a book, Gary bought it. He was going through there reading everything he could, even the want ads, that's how Gary is, he's a walking encyclopedia of Locomotives, Motorcycles and Cars. I've tried to stump the guy, it's nearly impossible.

Anyways, he was looking through the ads in that book and he seen one with a Whitney engine and boiler out on Grosse Ille in the Detroit River. This is in like 1978 etc - whenever that book came out. So he picked up the phone and called the number, unbelievably the guy still had the boiler, but had just sold the engine - the Whitney compound. It went out east to a guy named Webster (some of you know him). Reportedly, they pulled the engine apart and copied all the castings and sold them to various people. I seen one in a lifeboat at a meet. If you see one of those for sale it could be and most likely is, a reproduction.

Gary bought the boiler and brought it over to me and I shot pictures of it.

I have studied George Whitney quite a bit, he was an amazing man. Boston Tech/MIT grad, started out working in his uncle Amos' machine shop at 13, that Amos Whitney of Pratt&Whitney. His Great grandfather was Eli Whitney of Cotton Gin and firearm fame. George opened his own boatyard and started building steamboats, boilers and engines for the well to do Bostonian's. One day testing a new steamboat, he ran in to Sylvester Roper and the two immediately became friends. George went to work for Sylvester and together honed their steam knowledge. Around 1895 undoubtedly learning much from Roper and his 1864 Steam carriage, George built his own called the Whitney Motorette. To my knowledge he never went back to steamboats after that. He sold the patent to the the car (which was likely the patent for first production American car). He went to work for a few different steam car makers and then went on to design asphalt paving equipment in 1907. I haven't found much info on him past that. He was pretty well set financially by that point, he sold his patents and won a few big lawsuits.
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