Water Treatment
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- Full Steam Ahead
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Water Treatment
Howdy,
My boiler was steamed for the first time last fall and I only ran it about 6 times before it was drained and dried for the winter. I dod not do anything about water treatment last season. I have seen people mention TSP and also saw something on Terlyn SB 8000. What are people doing for water treatment and how do I tell if I am getting it right ? What metric should I focus on ? pH ?
jon
My boiler was steamed for the first time last fall and I only ran it about 6 times before it was drained and dried for the winter. I dod not do anything about water treatment last season. I have seen people mention TSP and also saw something on Terlyn SB 8000. What are people doing for water treatment and how do I tell if I am getting it right ? What metric should I focus on ? pH ?
jon
- Lopez Mike
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- Location: Lopez Island, Washington State, USA
Re: Water Treatment
Can't find anything with a Google search on Terlyn SB 8000. Is this a correct spelling?
Mike
Mike
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama
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- Full Steam Ahead
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Re: Water Treatment
Mike, it is good stuff, many railroads and industries use this as part of their water treatment. here is the link.
http://www.terlyn.com/lsb8000.html
http://www.terlyn.com/lsb8000.html
- Lopez Mike
- Full Steam Ahead
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- Location: Lopez Island, Washington State, USA
Re: Water Treatment
Ah. LSB.
Nice web site except no prices or whether it's powder or liquid or how much to use or any of the umpteen questions I have.
I trailer my boat and I hardly every know how soon I'll be steaming again so as soon as the fire dies down I blow down dry and leave a light bulb in the firebox for a few days. Then close it all up tight.
I looked in there this spring and all seems well.
By the way, live where it does freeze occasionally. I leave the boat empty of water for the winter. After a few struggles getting water out of odd corners in the system like check valves, I discovered the joys of my wet or dry vacuum.
Mike
Nice web site except no prices or whether it's powder or liquid or how much to use or any of the umpteen questions I have.
I trailer my boat and I hardly every know how soon I'll be steaming again so as soon as the fire dies down I blow down dry and leave a light bulb in the firebox for a few days. Then close it all up tight.
I looked in there this spring and all seems well.
By the way, live where it does freeze occasionally. I leave the boat empty of water for the winter. After a few struggles getting water out of odd corners in the system like check valves, I discovered the joys of my wet or dry vacuum.
Mike
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama
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- Full Steam Ahead
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Re: Water Treatment
Hi Guys,
Check out this link. http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82205
It has some conversation about the Terlyn stuff. Evidently people in the steam tractor community use it. I am not sure you can even buy it anymore. I know some folks use TSP. Bart has mentioned it in the past. I read the article in MSBSL on boiler water treatment about dissolved solids etc. I would have no issue running multiple tests if they are necessary, I am just not sure that they are.
If I keep "steamed water" in the boiler, (I am running closed loop) I shpouldnt have as much of a problem with dissolved oxygen as with Carbonic Acid forming from dissolved CO2. If that is indeed the case, is the main thing I need to watch out for the pH ? I haqve seen people recommend anywhere from 9 to 11 in pH. (7 is nreutral).
thoughts ?
jon
Check out this link. http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82205
It has some conversation about the Terlyn stuff. Evidently people in the steam tractor community use it. I am not sure you can even buy it anymore. I know some folks use TSP. Bart has mentioned it in the past. I read the article in MSBSL on boiler water treatment about dissolved solids etc. I would have no issue running multiple tests if they are necessary, I am just not sure that they are.
If I keep "steamed water" in the boiler, (I am running closed loop) I shpouldnt have as much of a problem with dissolved oxygen as with Carbonic Acid forming from dissolved CO2. If that is indeed the case, is the main thing I need to watch out for the pH ? I haqve seen people recommend anywhere from 9 to 11 in pH. (7 is nreutral).
thoughts ?
jon
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- Full Steam Ahead
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Re: Water Treatment
Hi all,
pH: On Navy boilers the pH was maintained at 10.6 to 11.0. In that range the pH vs. corrosion curve is at it's lowest. As pH increases corrosion increases until the curve goes vertical at 13.5. Corrosion increases very little untill it drops below 5.0. Since pH tends to drop while steaming, maintaining a pH near 11.0 will keep with in the lower corrosive range. Carbonic acid should not be an issue with the pH in the range of 9.0 to 11.0.
TSP: The phosphate level should be 100ppm. TSP in solution can produce a max pH of 11.8, however this is at a concentration that would greatly exceed 100pp phosphate. Thus final pH adjustment would need to be done with caustic soda.
Oxygen: On initial fill sodium sulfite can be added at the rate of ~0.5oz/10gal to act as an oxygen scavenger. This can also be done for wet lay-ups. Venting the top of the boiler during little off will allow any disolved gases that come out of solution to escape. Keeping the hotwell hot will help prevent the reindtorduction of oxygen into the system.
If the Terlyn products live up to the promise you can forget the above. It looks like the product they call CST(Closed System Treatment) is most applicable for the condensing systems many operate. One treatment, not alot of testing?
Sounds good, like the Ronco oven, "Set it, and forget it.".
Dave
pH: On Navy boilers the pH was maintained at 10.6 to 11.0. In that range the pH vs. corrosion curve is at it's lowest. As pH increases corrosion increases until the curve goes vertical at 13.5. Corrosion increases very little untill it drops below 5.0. Since pH tends to drop while steaming, maintaining a pH near 11.0 will keep with in the lower corrosive range. Carbonic acid should not be an issue with the pH in the range of 9.0 to 11.0.
TSP: The phosphate level should be 100ppm. TSP in solution can produce a max pH of 11.8, however this is at a concentration that would greatly exceed 100pp phosphate. Thus final pH adjustment would need to be done with caustic soda.
Oxygen: On initial fill sodium sulfite can be added at the rate of ~0.5oz/10gal to act as an oxygen scavenger. This can also be done for wet lay-ups. Venting the top of the boiler during little off will allow any disolved gases that come out of solution to escape. Keeping the hotwell hot will help prevent the reindtorduction of oxygen into the system.
If the Terlyn products live up to the promise you can forget the above. It looks like the product they call CST(Closed System Treatment) is most applicable for the condensing systems many operate. One treatment, not alot of testing?
Sounds good, like the Ronco oven, "Set it, and forget it.".
Dave
- Lopez Mike
- Full Steam Ahead
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Re: Water Treatment
Not to be totally crass but how much is it and where can I buy it? The web site I went to didn't have any of that information. Just a 'contact us' link.
Mike
Mike
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama
- Kelly Anderson
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Re: Water Treatment
As far as treating water is a steam boat, if you are running a condensing system, you’re running on mainly distilled water, so scale shouldn’t be much of a problem. If you are pulling your feed water from the lake, you would either need to treat the whole lake (inadvisable), or install a pump in the feed line to add a shot of treatment on a regular basis. Treating the water in the cold boiler in the AM is fine for the first hour, but then you would be running on “raw” water for most of your day.
Dry layup is critical. A heat source in the furnace as well as ventilation, and weep rags in the lower washout holes to remove water by capillary action are critical. It's amazing how fast they will dry out a boiler.
Dry layup is critical. A heat source in the furnace as well as ventilation, and weep rags in the lower washout holes to remove water by capillary action are critical. It's amazing how fast they will dry out a boiler.
- cyberbadger
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Re: Water Treatment
I have been using LSB8000 (LSB4000 is the same thing but more concentrated) this on my first stationary boiler. And I plan to use on my new ASME stamped boiler.
It doesn't need to be feed continuously as Kelly Anderson suggests. It's an amine based treatment, and will stay in the boiler until the boiler is emptied.
The beauty of it is that it is a no brainer. You add when you first fill your boiler with water from dry, there is a dosage on the bottle. But If you add too much - there are no negative consequences.
I don't know if it's appropriate for a condensing steam boat.
http://www.terlyn.com/lsb8000.html
http://www.terlyn.com/lsb4000.html
I bought from them directly by calling them and ordering a case (12 16oz bottles) of LSB8000.
http://www.terlyn.com/contact_us.html
When I order again, I'll buy the LSB4000, because It's twice? as concentrated and I'm sure the price isn't much more. As I said before you can't over dose your boiler.
Blowing down is helpful when you start using it. This stuff will get rid of the rust/scale and other crude and it will sink down.
Slowly over time it will convert the inside surface of the boiler to a black-grey that resists oxidation.
-CB
It doesn't need to be feed continuously as Kelly Anderson suggests. It's an amine based treatment, and will stay in the boiler until the boiler is emptied.
The beauty of it is that it is a no brainer. You add when you first fill your boiler with water from dry, there is a dosage on the bottle. But If you add too much - there are no negative consequences.
I don't know if it's appropriate for a condensing steam boat.
http://www.terlyn.com/lsb8000.html
http://www.terlyn.com/lsb4000.html
I bought from them directly by calling them and ordering a case (12 16oz bottles) of LSB8000.
http://www.terlyn.com/contact_us.html
When I order again, I'll buy the LSB4000, because It's twice? as concentrated and I'm sure the price isn't much more. As I said before you can't over dose your boiler.
Blowing down is helpful when you start using it. This stuff will get rid of the rust/scale and other crude and it will sink down.
Slowly over time it will convert the inside surface of the boiler to a black-grey that resists oxidation.
-CB
- Lopez Mike
- Full Steam Ahead
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- Boat Name: S.L. Spiffy
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Re: Water Treatment
In the spirit of open discussion, I will tell you that I am NOT an expert on boiler treatments. I throw a pinch of TSP in my hot well when I think of it and when the boiler is going to be idle for more than a few weeks, I blow it down hot and leave it dry and sealed up.
That said, The Virginia V boiler has fallen into the hands of the chemist crowd and the results have been mixed. As far as I know, the boiler is in good shape. The engine, however, has some problems and they started up at about the same time as the onset of modern feed water treatments (read, amines).
There is a persistent squeak coming from some of the valves. When the cylinder heads are off, there are noticeable marks where the rings last stopped in service. The bores look like nothing I have seen before. Not the usual glossy black at all.
This engine ran for decades with traditional treatments and very low maintenance. It outlived its makers. Now the engine has had some serious premature wear issues. Some speculate that there were incompatible replacement materials and others suspect the feed water treatment.
I have doubts but no answers.
That said, The Virginia V boiler has fallen into the hands of the chemist crowd and the results have been mixed. As far as I know, the boiler is in good shape. The engine, however, has some problems and they started up at about the same time as the onset of modern feed water treatments (read, amines).
There is a persistent squeak coming from some of the valves. When the cylinder heads are off, there are noticeable marks where the rings last stopped in service. The bores look like nothing I have seen before. Not the usual glossy black at all.
This engine ran for decades with traditional treatments and very low maintenance. It outlived its makers. Now the engine has had some serious premature wear issues. Some speculate that there were incompatible replacement materials and others suspect the feed water treatment.
I have doubts but no answers.
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama