Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

A special section just for steam engines and boilers, as without these you may as well fit a sail.
Stoomsnor
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Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

Post by Stoomsnor » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:58 pm

Hi you guys, Stoomsnor here!

In advance I'm sorry for my English. It's due to the fact that the only school I ever attended was the so-called "MAKE"
(More Advanced Kindergarten Education...) :D

Now seriously, I would like your advice on matter of hull-size versus enginepower and prop.
I am completing a twincompound-Lentz-steamengine which will make approximately 25HP at 200RPM, so 20HP on the prop.
Steam comes from a 7,5 square meter coalfired Scottsboiler which will deliver approximately 190kg/hour.
Because off the space I need to shovel coal the setup takes at least 4,5 meters (15 feet).
And last but not least this powerblock together with the coal wil have a weight of about 3 Tons... :o
Don't be fooled by the Allen keys or Allenwrenches in the pictures as they where already invented in 1911 and patented in 1936...

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I guess this is not an elegant engine you can put in a charming steamlaunch.
I mean, you can of course, but only divers will be able to watch it...
On the other hand I like the looks of all the moving parts on all of our steamdriven engines.
It's always a joy for the eye to see that these parts do what they do for whatever a reason...
So my thought would be an open rivited steel hull with a plump bow and a round rear with a little cabin in the front.
It could be like the type of "little" steamers which were used to transport laborers and small equipment to the ships
or the docks in former day harbors.

The boat or ship? must be able to contain a group of passengers and will have a little cabin with a toilet,
a small kitchen and two beds.
It has to sail on canals with a great numer of bridges as on rivers with a maximum current of 6 km/hour.
Most of the time it will be stationed on a little lake where the depth is mostly 1.2 meter (4 feet) with soft soil.
Is also should be able to cross the big lake (a former sea) in the Netherlands called IJsselmeer.
With bad weather this lake has typical short waves because it is only 3 meters (9 feet) deep.
I am not planning to sail then but I would like to have her able to manage with that in a safe way.

There is a type of boat in the Netherlands referred to as "Amsterdammertje" that has most of the specific elements I like.
As you can read in the word it was used in and around Amsterdam most of the time and they still are!
They are typical for the Dutch naval history and come in a lots of different sizes.
Momentarely I am looking at a l steel hull of a "Amsterdammertje".
Sized: length x beam x berth = 13,25m(42'6") x 3,25m(10'8") x 1,95(6'5").
To be honest I am a bit everwhelmed by the sheer size of it on land.
It's estimated weight is 10 tons, so together with powerblock and coal at least 13 tons...
Can my engine cope with it in a safe and relyable way?
Or would another hulltype be recommended?

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As for the prop I will have to cope with the propellercasing. I am guessing I will not be able to have enough room to have the requiered 1.06m (41") prop fitted. And than there is the low RPM of the engine. I have a chaingear 1:2 to crank the rpm's up to 400, but will I still have enough torque then? What do you guys think? :roll:

Greatings from Stoomsnor Frank
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gondolier88
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Re: Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

Post by gondolier88 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:57 pm

Frank,

While displacement and machinery are a given, what you haven't said is what you would prefer your boat to be...

It is entirely possible to design a boat to easily swing a 41inch prop', however with the almost implausible depth of water you are considering keeping the boat on it would have to encompass a tunnel stern- this fact, along with the shallow nature of the water you intend to sail on would make your plant very inefficient due to propeller inefficiencies in shallow water and the tunnel stern blocking a good flow of water to the prop'- expect cavitation at all but the lowest engine rev's. Perhaps I misread and you simply intend on mooring the boat in the shallow water and sailing will always be in deeper canals and lakes?

With the engine size you have the possibilities are endless, a small steam yacht, a large cabin launch. The traditional solution to your problematical home waters in the age of steam would have been, of course, a paddle steamer...

The Amsterdammertje boats look like very useful hull designs- however with a counter stern you would struggle to keep draft at the skeg to less than 4ft.

Do take a look at Steam Tug BARKING in the SBA steamboat register for a project with many similarities that works beautifully. I have some good pictures of the engine room layout- and I think we could possibly reduce the 15ft estimated for the engine space- BARKING has one of the best laid out sea-going steam tug engine rooms you could ever wish to see. If you could PM me your email address I can forward them to you.

Best of luck with your project.

Greg
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http://www.simpsonboatbuilding.co.uk
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gondolier88
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Re: Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

Post by gondolier88 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:05 pm

Within 2mins of looking on ApolloDuck;

http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=86840

Greg
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http://www.simpsonboatbuilding.co.uk
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Re: Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

Post by Mike Rometer » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:56 am

Any mileage in looking at twin screw?
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Re: Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

Post by fredrosse » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:30 am

Looks like you are very good for a 42 ft hull and 13 tonnes. At 2 horsepowerper tonne, you will easily make hull speed, about 8 knots. The propeller size of 41 inches is just about right, you can find one used, or on ebay (is ebay is in your area?) for a fraction of new cost, with some time spent shopping. 40 x 50 to 60 inch pitch, 3 blade propeller is proper for 200 RPM.

No gearbox on a steamer!!

Your boiler should produce 750 PPH (Pounds per Hour), or 0.34 tonnes per hour for Metric measure, with a typical simple engine.

Sounds like a great project. Tell us more about your engine, dimensions, pressure, basis of power rating, etc. A high efficiency engine might use only 2/3 of the boiler capacity mentioned above. In that condition your boiler, at 0.19 tonnes per hour is about correct for 25 horsepower.
Stoomsnor
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Re: Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

Post by Stoomsnor » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:47 am

Thanks for the input guys! How great is it to be able to communicate with steamfriends all over the world :D !!!

I thought I had all questions well defined, still forgot some...

Speedlimits and depth:
One of those was that I would like to be able to just cruise around on the shallow lake with very low RPM as say 60-70. The lake was formed by excavating piet or turf an thats where I am mooring the boat. It is approximatly 6,5 feet deep.
The river I will be on most of the time is restricted to 9km/hour (4,9 knots) and is 13 feet deep.
The big lake called IJsselmeer has no restriction, I would like to be able to make maximum hullspeed there on occasion :lol:

Appearances:
I do like the appearance of steamtug Barking very much! It's a real eye-catcher!!! The only disadvantage in my opinion is that you can't see the engine working in all its beauty. The same with another beautiful tug called "Wodan" (thanks for pointing me to that ship Greg!) The reason I prefer a big open boat is the engine being exposed.

Powerblockdimensions;
As for the space I need for the setup. There is not an alternative for an other arrangement due to looks and weight and practical isues as shoveling coal and steering and passengerseats.
I would very much like to see how you got things done Greg, really would like to see those pictures!!! I will contact you soon.

Twinscrew:
As for the idea of a twinscrew from Mike Rometer (hilarious nickname, by the way :lol: ), I like it very much! It was done that way in former days. And when such a vessel crosses my path I will go for it. To build it on an existing vessel however will be very expensive :(

Sufficient power!!!:
I have to admit I am quite relieved to hear from you, Fred, that the enginepower will be sufficient :D !
The 41" propsize however is a wishfull one I calculated from your former posts. This thursday I will go to the boat to measure the actual sizes of it together with the existing prop and its cage. I'll post it as soon as I know the right dimensions.
I red in a post once there are advantages of a "square" four-bladed prop for a steamer. It is not very clear to me what they are :shock:?

Gearbox:
You're very clear about the gearbox Fred. I do share your opinion! In 2014 however I visited the "Great Brittain", believed to be the first propellordriven oceangoing ship in the world. As drewling around in this magnificent work of art I ran into this gigantic multiple chain used as a gearbox...
It changed my opinion a bit, but still don't like them.
Depending on the propelloraxleangle (is that even a word?) and boatbalance I will have to deal with an ideal location. The engine itself has no problems with it, it runs easily forward to backward. I'm considering a clutch though as for making it possible to run stationary without pulling of the moorrings...

Boiler and enginespecs:
You got me worried Fred given your astimated calculations about boilerperformance! Even more because I've read a lot of your posts and they always are accurate...
The boiler and the engine came together and were said to be made for each other. It took me quite some time to figure out the boiler as well as the engine.
The engine exists of two 180 degree-compounds coupled together on one crankshaft. Normally all known types of twincompound Lentz steamengines run on superheated steam. However given the boilerappearance without superheater, the boilerpressure of 15ata, all valves being fit to cope with a max of 225 degrees Celsius and the fact that this engine has single-seated instead of doubleseated valves made me conclude it was build for saturated steam.
The engine is fed with 15ata.
Due to a condensor the backdraft is 0,18ata.
Pistonrodsdiameters are 26mm, HP-cilinders are 95mm, LP-cilinders are 206mm (Scaled down from superheated brothers one would expect 203,3mm)
Pistonstroke is 140mm (Scaled down from superheated brothers you would expect 210mm)
Estimated average space between piston and head/bottom is 10 percent
Max filling is 65 percent (Normaly with the superheated brothers 30-42 percent to a max of 65 percent)
RPM 200 (Normaly with the big superheated brothers 70-100/140 RPM with a max due to the valvesystem and mass of 275 RPM)
Makes 28,96 IPK
Makes 25,19 EPK
Available on prop 20,15 PK with all set on maximum
With that it will take 219,12 KG/Hour on maximum.
Under normal conditions there will be 15,57 HP available on the prop with 141,58 KG/Hour so 6,33 KG/IPK/Hour
(The big brothers were famous for there 5 KG/IPK/Hour running superheated)

The boiler is a 7,5 square meter coalfired Scottsboiler which, given from the heatchanging area's, I calculated to deliver approximately 190kg/hour at a max of 15 ata. I am however still not clear about the exact boilertype, but when it is a version of the Scottsboiler with a waterwall attached to it, it could go up as far as a stunning 300kg/hour! I red a lot about boilers but was not able to find my type as seen on the pictures. Perhaps you guys recognize the type?

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gondolier88
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Re: Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

Post by gondolier88 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:19 pm

Lovely boiler there Frank! It's a dry-back Scotch boiler with wet legs in the primary smokebox to increase efficiency- the best arrangement where the complexity of constructing wet-back boiler renders it out of budget range. It also makes re-tubing a far easier proposition should you ever have to.

With the size of grate you have you will have fun learning to control the fire and run without making smoke- it's interesting on a Scotch boiler because the long thin ash space below the grate creates high and low pressure points along the grate whereby you will find that you will typically be feeding the front of the grate and pushing the hot coals back before putting new coal on- this allows the volatiles in the coal to burn off over the glowing 'coke' at the rear of the grate and uses all the energy in the coal, makes less soot and creates a nice light blue haze from the funnel. It is very satisfying when you get to the point of knowing exactly what the boiler requires without even looking.

I remember details of a beautiful counter sterned launch in Amsterdam which I can't remember the name of right now. You may know it? Your comments regarding open engine space rang a bell as it has a very smart cabin with an open-sided engine and boiler space forward of the cabin. It has rather large round portlights in the cabin side of I remember correctly. A bit of Googling required to find her name I think...

Greg
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Re: Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

Post by gondolier88 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:24 pm

Nowhere near Amsterdam- she's in Australia! Remembered seeing a short article about her, possibly in Classic Boat magazine. Anyway, here is her website;

http://www.preana.org/Default.aspx
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Re: Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

Post by gondolier88 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:32 pm

The old Royal Navy steam pinnaces are a good basis for a boat that you are describing- there are couple for sale at the moment;

http://www.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=456115

Double diagonal teak on oak, with room for a big prop. They can be fitted out in all manner of styles and could happily carry a fully open, or half-open style such as PREANA above.

Greg
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http://www.simpsonboatbuilding.co.uk
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Re: Appropriate hullsize and prop for 25 HP engine

Post by Stoomsnor » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:10 pm

Hi there Greg! Thanks for the quick response!

I just love the way you describe the way the boiler functiones. One would say you sell them all day long :lol: !
Does one in general refer to these wet leggs as a waterwall? I read an article ones that stated that a manual coalfedboiler should be able to make up to 39kg/h/m²!
If that is correct my boiler should be able to produce 7,5 x 39 = 292,5kg/h! That would be great news for my big engine :D !
Do you happen to know where I can find the source of your finding? I like to be well-documentated...

It makes me doubt however... In my other post: "Correct construction of firepit Scotchboiler" concerning my boiler I just concluded that the frame with bars in it might have been redesigned to fit another type of combustion. Perhaps to create even more steam? I am not sure yet, mmmm :roll:

You pointed out a few lovely boats to me! Thanks for that as well!
I specially like the steam yacht "preana" that has this really classy look. I was inspired with the possibilities shown in its picture!

Nice to hear from you Greg!

Frank
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