What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

A special section just for steam engines and boilers, as without these you may as well fit a sail.
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cyberbadger
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Re: What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

Post by cyberbadger » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:34 am

4" Pipe is a bit ridiculous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsRKrXhs-XQ



-CB
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Re: What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

Post by cyberbadger » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:03 am

It is a work out to tighten up 4" pipe.... Did I mention I don't like plumbing? :) Nobody ever told me when I entered the steam hobby how much plumbing/pipe fitting would be involved.

So this is what I am looking at trying, there is a shallow angle. Right now a black tool chest is supporting it, but I will add a leg so that it sits as shown.
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5 Gallon Mark
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KPV parameters met:
1) This should allow the PV to slip in as a passengers legs in a 2 person kayak depending on how much insulation is used.
2) 5 Gallons fits with a generous steam dome. No internal baffles.
3) Two ports will allow experimentation on filling.

Safety parameters met
a) 125PSI MAWP Pressure Vessel. All pipe and fittings rated for 150PSI SWP or higher.
b) 1/4" restriction on the two valved swagelok ports + 125PSI Steam Safety Relief valve accommodates incoming 200PSI steam/water.
3) Escaping steam/water should flow towards the 4" elbows for passenger/crew safety

Next up is a hydro at 1.5x MAWP at 225 without the safety valve.

-CB
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Re: What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

Post by cyberbadger » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:00 pm

The PV hydro of 250psi, which is 2x the MAWP of 125PSI.

Next up is to add a some mechanical support, and then an uninsulated steam test.

Fred, please share your thoughts before I apply steam.

-CB
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Lionel Connell
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Re: What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

Post by Lionel Connell » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:45 am

Not wishing to put a dampener on the idea but simply wishing to understand the reason for the mission, I can't help but ask the question.

If you are going to go to all of the trouble of the set up described, in order to get just a few minutes of running out of your Kayak, why not just add a small pump, a coil of suitable tube away from the vessel in the kayak and run it as a Lamont with no heating of the vessel, just wrap it in insulation? For a Kayak the vessel could probably be as small as a liter in volume, you could run at a much lower pressure say 50 PSI, add a keel condenser and a very small feed pump and you're self sustainable. The whole setup would be lighter than what is being currently described.

In order to operate the system described in the thread it seems that you would need to have a boiler attendant remain on the mother ship to allow refueling, and given that you need to connect and disconnect from the main boiler for re-energizing of the kayak, some amount of risk of accident remains, not from explosion but from having hot water spraying everywhere when the valve is opened from the main boiler but the detachable pipe is not properly attached.

I am just trying to understand the advantage in a system where the you have an unheated vessel in a kayak at the end of a pipe that originates in another boat, as apposed to having a unheated vessel in the kayak connected to a pipe return circuit where the pipe itself is heated in the kayak.

cheers

Lionel
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Re: What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

Post by fredrosse » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:45 pm

From Lionel: "Not wishing to put a dampener on the idea but simply wishing to understand the reason for the mission, I can't help but ask the question.

If you are going to go to all of the trouble of the set up described, in order to get just a few minutes of running out of your Kayak, why not just add a small pump, a coil of suitable tube away from the vessel in the kayak and run it as a Lamont with no heating of the vessel..........."

Most of the answer is clear from the first post on this forum thread, from CB: "I had this interesting idea ... what if I could have a "scout" boat in the form of a steam powered kayak with no boiler, but a vessel to hold some water from Nyitra's boiler. Enough to run a small model engine for say - up to 10 minutes?"

As far as having the heat source in the kayak, this is not the first time that this has been brought up, and since CB likes to try and follow established rules, he cannot have a "boiler" with cast iron parts of the pressure vessel, that is an ASME rule. A Lamont type boiler here would be a "Fired Power Boiler" according to the ASME rules, not just the fired coil, but the entire pressure vessel boundary. Again, no cast iron parts for the pressure vessel is allowed.

From Lionel: ".....given that you need to connect and disconnect from the main boiler for re-energizing of the kayak, some amount of risk of accident remains, ......" Yes, that is true. Better make sure that connections are correct, and double check things before you get close to the danger.
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Re: What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

Post by cyberbadger » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:25 pm

Well I took this picture this summer because I believe boats talk to each other.
kayaknyirtra.jpg
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Kayak, "I'm captain's yacht!"
Nyitra, "Do you make me a ship?"

Nyitra could actually have Davits for this :)

I'm actually thinking more broady about this PV. If it's insulated well enough, and manageable enough I'll let you use your imagination....

-CB
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Re: What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

Post by Lionel Connell » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:39 am

Fredrosse,

I was thinking that a reason for the mission was that Cyberbadger was wishing to avoid the need for boiler inspection in his Kayak, and if this is not so, that is great.

But I would like to further understand the definition of a fired vessel.

I am having difficulty understanding the definable difference between the two setups.

If a pressure vessel connected to a heating coil ( Lamont style) in the same boat is a "fired vessel" because the vessel is connected via a pipe to an energy source, then how is this made different by using a longer pipe and having a fired boiler on another boat connected to the vessel? i.e., If the vessel in the kayak is connected via a pipe to the boiler on the mother ship while the mother ship's boiler is under fire, then surely this is considered to also be a situation where the vessel in the kayak is fired, at least for the period of time that the two are connected together.

What am I missing?

cheers

Lionel
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Re: What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

Post by fredrosse » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:28 am

A fired power boiler is defined as the entire assembly which includes the pressure retaining parts that participate in the function of the boiler. Those pressure parts which are receiving water, and steam that is generated from the primary energy source, which form an inherent part of the process, are considered to come under the jurisdiction of the ASME Section I, the Power Boiler Code.

The ASME code has diagrams defining the boundary limits for boilers, including the feedwater end as well as the output end (or ends, in reheat boilers). On the output end there is an isolation valve defining this boundary, and all upstream pressure retaining parts, protected by the boiler's safety valve(s) form the basic boiler pressure vessel.

The primary energy source is usually an external fire, but also applicable to electric boilers, H2O2 steam generators, H2 + O2 steam generators, as well as nuclear heated steam generators.

Many devices and other pressure vessels can be connected downstream of the boiler, and there are ASME code rules for the construction and materials for many of these downstream components, be they engines, or turbines, or heating coils, or steam/water accumulators etc.
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Re: What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

Post by Lionel Connell » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:06 am

Thank you for the explanation, understood.

Cheers

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Re: What are the concerns/safety of an unfired >100C vessel

Post by cyberbadger » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:27 am

No - I would love to have my boiler inspected on Nyitra! - it's ASME code and stamped - the National Boiler board has the record. The boat is registered with the state& insured. But nobody asked for an inspection, and I've been complaining ever since. :-P

Actually I'm not even sure if I have to register the kayak. I think not, because it will depend on Nyitra. Most places I go no trouble is given to unlicensed kayaks as long as you have safety gear that is appropriate - whistle, bailer, life jacket, some form of white light if you want to go at night.

Hmm - Fred can I run steam in through the PVes water side? The Relief is on the other end of the PV...

-CB
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