New Stainless Economizer

A special section just for steam engines and boilers, as without these you may as well fit a sail.
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Lopez Mike
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Re: New Stainless Economizer

Post by Lopez Mike » Thu May 23, 2019 5:00 pm

Yeah. Blunders don't have to be hazardous to be embarrassing.

More than once I have forgotten to open the feed water isolation valve at the boiler. There is some non-metallic line in that system so the pump doesn't stress out particularly or blow a fitting.

Suddenly (from my head in the air point of view), the hot well is overflowing and the glass is low. Much closing of the damper, frantic hand pump action and reduced speed while I point out eagles and Orcas to my unsuspecting passengers. Steamers on board roll their eyes, look away and thank their gods that it isn't happening to them!

Soon, a day glow colored handle on the valve and a 'remove before flight' pennant on the throttle. Maybe a check list? Has anyone tried that? Works for doctors and pilots I know.
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
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DetroiTug
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Re: New Stainless Economizer

Post by DetroiTug » Sun May 26, 2019 1:58 pm

Quote: "I'm contemplating small bypass line with a needle valve from just before the whistle valve back to the hot well to keep the whistle feed line from accumulating condensation. I don't expect it to totally eliminate the hot water shower but one hopes."

That is a common problem I've ran across. A shot of water at the beginning is condensation, but if it is blowing water after one second or so, that is a case of the whistle being too large for the boiler. High demand/violent boiling/rising water level and carry over. I've seen this remedied by simply downsizing the piping to the whistle i.e. instead of half inch pipe, using 3/8" copper tube instead. This limits the amount of steam going to the whistle, it may not be as loud, but it's better than being scalded.

I have an original whistle from a steam launch, it's on my Locomobile car of all places. It is a 3 chime, 1-3/8" diameter body with 1/4" pipe, the elbow at the base suggests that it's steam line ran inside the stack (which would combat the condensation issue by keeping the line hot). The whistles that modern day steamboaters are using were for traction engines etc, much larger boilers. Just a sidenote, the steam cars never had whistles as they would scare horses. When in Rome..

-Ron
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Lopez Mike
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Re: New Stainless Economizer

Post by Lopez Mike » Sun May 26, 2019 2:08 pm

Mine is only at the first opening of the valve after not using it for a few minutes. I'm hoping that between a warming bypass and some insulation of the line from the boiler to the valve, I can make life easier for the guests.

The eventual solution will probably be a canopy. Burning softwood means that I have a cinder problem as well. I have a couple of windbreakers with lots of teeny little hose burnt in them. I hate to cut back on the draft by installing a stack screen.
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Re: New Stainless Economizer

Post by DetroiTug » Sun May 26, 2019 2:44 pm

TahoeSteam wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 3:58 pm
Something to keep in mind that we have encountered is overheating the economizer when not pumping water.

We've mainly encountered it when we've had a hot fire going while waiting to leave and the engine isn't running. The economizer gets so hot that when we did start running the engine and pumping water it acted like a monotube boiler; producing a lot more steam, but not helping raise the water level at all. The solution ended up being to plumb in a circuit for additional pumps (hand, aux, etc) to pump into the economizer to help with additional cooling. When encountered, shutting off/dampening the fire and pumping tons of water into the system helped to cool it down. Minimizing time with heavy firing and no water flow helps mitigate encountering the situation in the first place.

Being on top of your game and recognizing potential conditions for this to occur, or recognizing it when it does occur can save you a lot of heartache. Nothing more embarrassing than having to drop anchor with a bunch of passengers aboard because you have low water, can't get any into the boiler, and can't have a good fire to have enough steam to run the engine to pump water 😂

That is one of the advantages of the steampump/middle trycock feedwater system. When I come in to dock, even if the fire is high, close the damper and leave the steam pump running, it serves to calm everything down. And besides that it sounds and looks pretty cool hissing steam out the side while tied up.

What I did encounter with my economizer overheating while bypassing/not pumping: Steam pressure would build in the economizer and take the path of least resistance and that was back through the less than perfect seats in the check valves of the pump - blow the prime away from the pumps and when I went to take feedwater again - nothing. I remedied at first by putting a valve right at the entrance to the economizer, that worked as long as I remembered to close it and open it, I solved it entirely by installing an Apollo soft seat 100% sealing check valve which are actually sold for hydraulic service. Did the same on the car. My buddy was having the same problems, that same solution worked for him.

The Tug sat for about 2 years and now the check valves are all contaminated, I need to run some TSP through them.

-Ron
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DetroiTug
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Re: New Stainless Economizer

Post by DetroiTug » Sun May 26, 2019 2:54 pm

Quote: "More than once I have forgotten to open the feed water isolation valve at the boiler. There is some non-metallic line in that system so the pump doesn't stress out particularly or blow a fitting."

Just put a small relief valve on the discharge side of the pump. The small brass air relief valves work fine. They have them up to 4,000 psi. As absent minded as I am, I would have broke about 10 pumps by now. It tends to happen more often anywhere near a beach, something about bikini clad women and boiler operation, they don't mix.

https://www.mcmaster.com/air-relief-valves

-Ron
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Re: New Stainless Economizer

Post by DetroiTug » Sun May 26, 2019 3:26 pm

fredrosse wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:43 pm
".....the steampump/middle trycock level control that i have, it works but it's wasteful. "

Sidetracking the original thread for a moment, I have also used the middle trycock level control, and it works very well. The trycock orifice is adjusted to let down full feed pump mass flow (liquid saturated boiler water), so any steam use results in a net loss of boiler water mass. When the water level in the boiler is high, the liquid mass flow through this fixed orifice is also high, bringing down the water level in the boiler. When the level is low, the steam mass flow thru the same fixed orifice is saturated steam, which is only about 10% of the high level flow, so the feed pump can easily keep up and restore boiler water level.

This by itself is wasteful of energy, dumping this orifice flow back to the feed tank, or to atmosphere, where it does little to none in the way of thermal economy. A way around this is to put a small counterflow heat exchanger with cool feedwater flowing toward the boiler, and the boiler orifice flow going back to the feed tank (or overboard), heating the feedwater. This recovers most of the energy in the orifice flow by heating the incoming feedwater. While not perfect efficiency, it provides a reliable boiler water level control with no moving parts or controls whatsoever, and recovers the great majority of orifice flow heat energy, also with no moving parts in the fluid system whatsoever.
Yes it works really well and I think it is one of those "order of scale" matters. Larger boiler with lots of reserve, it's losses are negligible and unnoticed. As the boilers get smaller with less reserve, any change is noticed more quickly. Yes, with the heat exchanger on the steam exhaust of the pump, the losses are tolerable. Having a variety of feedpump types on the tug has provided a valid comparison of types. The engine driven, needle valve bypass closely adjust to water consumption of the boiler has proved to be the most efficient which is obvious. I would guesstimate, the steam pump/trycock method is around 80% as efficient.

-Ron
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Re: New Stainless Economizer

Post by fredrosse » Mon May 27, 2019 12:36 pm

Using whistles from large steam locomotives invites heavy priming when the whistle consumes about 10x the boiler's normal capacity. I currently have a 3/4 inch whistle, and between the boiler and whistle valve I put a 3/4 inch gate valve. With 5 PSI on the boiler I can get plenty of whistle sound, but far too much at 100 PSI operating pressure, with lousy sound.

Once the boiler is up to operating pressure I hold open the whistle valve, and slowly crack open the gate valve to throttle steam flow until I get good sound. The boiler does not prime, and the whistle makes proper notes with this arrangement.

Been trying to get rid of the water shower that comes with the whistle, to no avail. The solution for me: a canopy over my head!
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Re: New Stainless Economizer

Post by DetroiTug » Mon May 27, 2019 1:34 pm

Not all whistles are created equally, sounds as though you have one designed for low pressure, or someone has been playing with it. They are designed for a designated pressure range, the gap between the languid plate and the shell dictates the pressure in which they will tone at the right frequency, the wider the gap, the lower the pressure. The traction engine whistles work for us because they operated on about the same pressure. Easy test, If they can be operated by simply blowing in to it, they are very low pressure whistles and generally not very loud. A good whistle will work in a broader range of pressures. The whistle on my car is low pressure, I had to pipe in a needle valve right before it and limit the flow, and it only works now at higher pressure 100 - 250 psi. Without the needle valve, anything over 80 psi, it just squeals.

The type of whistles with a bell or chamber on threaded rod can supposedly be adjusted up and down for different pressures, I've not had any luck trying that.

-Ron
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