What may be a dumb question...

A special section just for steam engines and boilers, as without these you may as well fit a sail.
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stevey_frac
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What may be a dumb question...

Post by stevey_frac » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:31 pm

Hi Guys,

I'm about to ask what might be a really dumb question.

Is a vacuum pump strictly necessary? I mean, couldn't you just dump your steam into a condenser, and either let the steam push the condensed water into your hot well, or allow the condensate to run downhill to some location where you can pump just the condensate to your hotwell?

It just seems like you would waste a lot of effort pumping near vacuum. And the water is going to condense better at a higher pressure anyways.

However, all condensing systems seem to run a vacuum, so there obviously must be a reason! Please explain this to me! :lol:
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Re: What may be a dumb question...

Post by mcandrew1894 » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:33 am

ABSOLUTELY! Not a dumb question at all!

Many run their boats that way....a bit more back pressure, but not a lot ....and it is nice not to have the complications....

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Re: What may be a dumb question...

Post by Edward » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:39 pm

Mcandrew is absolutely right . A vacuum pump is not strictly neccessary , in fact in some applications it is more trouble than it is worth .

If the only reason you're condensing is because you're steaming on poor water and can't carry enough make-up water you may not need a vacuum pump .
I write may not need rather than do not need because a lot depends on your engine :
If the engine is a single cylinder or twin high the extra weight , complexity, cost , noise etc of a vacuum pump will greatly outweigh the advantage that a vacuum on the exhaust side of the piston will give . These engines are not usually designed to need this vacuum .
It can be different with compounds : in some cases the difference in sizes between the HP and LP cylinders is so big that it is only by having a vacuum that the LP does any work . In such cases although a vacuum pump may not be essential it is probably desirable unless you are prepared to accept the loss of power that will result .

Regards , Edward .
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Re: What may be a dumb question...

Post by fredrosse » Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:19 am

Condensing serves two purposes:

1. Recovering condensate to re-use in the boiler, especially needed when operating in salt water areas.
2. Possibly reducing the back pressure on the engine exhaust by maintaining a vacuum in the condenser, thus increasing power output.

The condensing can be accomplished at either vacuum conditions or atmospheric pressure, or even some positive pressure.

A condenser operating at vacuum conditions needs a vacuum pump to remove any non-condensable gasses (air) that leak into the system. In theory, the gain in power from the engine operating with vacuum exhaust conditions far exceeds the power consumed by the vacuum pump. However in practical terms as applied to small launch steam plants, the vacuum pump may consume more power than is gained by the engine. This can occur if the vacuum pump is a very inefficient one, or is grossly oversized for the intended service. As mentioned in a preceding post, this may often be the case for some small launch steam plants.

In addition to the vacuum pump, one needs another pump to remove the condensate and force it up to atmospheric pressure of the hotwell or feedwater tank. For small steam launch systems, (and large historical marine plants) the duty of pumping non-condensables and condensate is combined into a single pump, normally named a “wet vacuum pump”.


Exhausting to atmosphere is the simplest setup, with gravity drain to the hotwell.

Exhausting to some pressure above atmospheric is also employed, and the positive pressure (hopefully only a slight positive pressure) can force the condensate to the hotwell (or feed water tank). Non condensables would also be forced thru, although there should be virtually none, as all parts of the steam system operate at positive pressure, thus no air inleakage.

A caution is required here:

If there is any possibility of getting higher condenser pressures, then a positive vent relief path will be required, unless the condenser and all of its connected piping are capable of withstanding the maximum pressure that the condenser could possibly experience.

On my steam plants with condenser vacuum, I use a large condenser vent pipe with a check valve on the atmospheric discharge connection. If the vacuum pump fails, or the cooling water fails, condenser pressure will rise to atmospheric pressure, and excess exhaust flow will be released at atmospheric pressure. Large industrial plants have a pressure relief device on every condenser, usually set to open at about two atmospheres pressure.

If there is no vent path, it is conceivable that almost full boiler pressure could be applied to the condenser, and most of them are not designed to withstand this condition.
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Re: What may be a dumb question...

Post by mcandrew1894 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:06 am

As long as there are no valves in line, then the check valves on the system should vent with anything above atmospheric pressure.

My system is set up that way in the event that the wet air pump fails....I won't have a problem....just some more backpressure.


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Re: What may be a dumb question...

Post by stevey_frac » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:16 am

Thanks for the replies. It makes sense. It seems as though i wasn't missing any critical pieces of information. :D
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Re: What may be a dumb question...

Post by Maltelec » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:27 pm

I often tell people an air pump is just like a supercharger in reverse - it gives you more power in the right conditions but adds complication.

On Windermere the lake water is about as clean as you can get, so reusing the boiler water isn't an issue for us. If we were canal based it would be a different matter.

The only other point is if you are not puffing, you have removed the extra draft form the fire, and you may find that without a vacuum you can't maintain the same speed because the engine is just as efficient as puffing but without the extra power from the exhaust.
I've got the vehicle, just need the boat.
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