Water Treatment

[cyberbadger]

In the spirit of open discussion, I will tell you that I am NOT an expert on boiler treatments.

I am also NOT an expert on boiler treatments either.

I wouldn't change boiler water treatments in a steamboat if it has been working well.

One important note also because it's going to muddle things too much is the basic configuration:

1) Condensing or Non-Condensing
2) New or old
3) Firetube or Watertube (Not sure if that matters)

Amine treatments will remove scale and crud and reveal defects in a boiler that have been sealing things. (and valves and engines)

Personally I wouldn't recommend it for any steamboater other then Non-Condensing, New, and Firetube boiler.

That maybe too conservative.

I'm:
1) Non-Condensing
2) Well the boiler is new 2015, but the engine is 1902. Juxtaposition?
3) Firetube boiler.

-CB

[fredrosse]

I am also NOT an expert on boiler treatments either, but the water treatment chemists in the group here have told me a few things:

For a 200 PSI or lower boiler, TSP is generally very adequate, maintain the Ph around 10.
The TSP stays in the boiler, and is only removed from blowdown or water carryover in the steam. Very small amounts are consumed in neutralizing acidic feedwater. The main advantages are lowered corrosion and softened/suspended precipates, rather than hard scale buildup.

The alternate chemicals that come in a package, they cannot comment as the actual ingredients are never given out.

Firetube or watertube, makes no difference.

Dissolved Oxygen - Will be worse with non-condensing operation, Oxygen, or for that matter, any dissolved gas, will be driven out of solution when the boiler brings the water up to the boiling point. When laying up with the boiler full, be sure to steam the boiler to get rid of Oxygen before bottling up the boiler.

With a stainless steel boiler, there can be many new issues due to stainless steel sensitivity to various chemicals, and these issues have generally not been investigated, because stainless is not allowed for ASME Code boilers.

[steamdon-jr]

Fred, you have brought up a very important point with the stainless, I was reading somewhere on line and cannot find the darn bookmark about boiler treatment in the UK. The treatment worked very well on their steel boilers but had a quick erosion effect on brass and copper such as sight glass fittings. do your in the know friends have any remarks about that ? kind of scared us away from the terylin till we found answers...

[cyberbadger]

Boiler treatment is somewhat of a dark art in my mind. In commercial and industrial they have all this electronic monitoring.

I think it's a case where there are several different ways to do it for hand fired steam. Personally I don't want to measure my TDS or Ph levels. That's why I like the appeal of Terlyn LSB.

But also just using ANY method of water treatment and observing the interior of your boiler with an endoscope/borescope from time to time is an important step.

Your boiler and plant will appreciate your diligence by giving better efficiency and not drawing anyone's blood.

Heck - $15 for a USB lighted endoscope!!!
http://www.dx.com/p/ip67-waterproof-usb ... RSty1nyPz8

I bought one almost like this a few years back for around $100:
http://www.sears.com/svp-2.4inch-color- ... Redirect=y

Some further reading if you want to go crazy.
http://www.gewater.com/handbook/index.jsp -- Especially chapter 11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiler_wat ... _treatment
http://www.lenntech.com/applications/pr ... rosion.htm

-CB

[fredrosse]

Much thanks cyberbadger for the good references you have provided.

I have bought the Harbor Freight borescope for $69, and it comes with about a 2-1/2 inch LCD screen, but resolution is a little worse than the USB scope you mention above. The USB model, for such a low price, is great for those of us who have (or can borrow from our kids) a laptop computer. When these things first came out, they cost thousands, but utility companies immediately bought them because they tell us so much about the internals of boilers, piping and heat exchangers.

[Lopez Mike]

Just the thing for amateur proctologists!
(Sorry. I couldn't resist.)

[DetroiTug]

As steamdon alludes to above, be careful with boiler treatments. Although they may be helping the boiler when mixed properly, they may be destroying other components. TSP in an aluminum water tank from reports will cause problems. It accelerates oxidization of the aluminum which from crystalline particles, then breaks off and makes its way to the feedpump, boiler and engine.

As Bart once wrote on here and I completely agree with, As much as we steam, any boiler without boiler additives and reasonable care will last many years. One guy I know that uses TSP called me concerned one winter because his LP piston was stuck in the cylinder of his beautiful AVL compound and he was certain he had oiled the cylinders well at layup. Hardly conclusive, but worth consideration.

Most boiler shells are around .375" thick. Take a piece of .375" steel and lay it out side, see how long it takes to rust away. It doesn't quickly, because it gets rained on (wetted) then exposed to dry air it erm drys. Quick corroding of the steel I think is caused by allowing a boiler to sit closed up with water in it. Completely full is supposed to be another method of preservation, but I've seen lots of steel rust badly totally submerged. On shut-down, Blow it down hot and then leave all the valves open so it can dry out.

Firetube types should be blown down in stages (Locomotives), our little boilers, I don't think it matters.

-Ron

[Lopez Mike]

I took care of a full sized locomotive for a few years. My memory is that the reasoning for being a bit careful when blowing down was because the tubes and flues were not welded in. Just rolled and peened over. Trying to let the boiler change shape gradually rather than suddenly. The length of these boilers changes more than you might think as the temperature and pressure change.

On larger locomotives with a head end throttle, it is necessary to have a reversing linkage in the external throttle rod so that the throttle will not creep open on cool down at the end of service as the throttle rod and boiler do not change length at the same rate. I know of at least one case of a loco creeping quite a ways when the throttle leaked as the boiler cooled. A concienscous operator leaves the cylinder cocks open whenever leaving a hot loco.

I'm speaking of a full blowdown not just cleaning out the mud ring. As in emptying out the boiler for a wash down or more serious work.

[DetroiTug]

Mike,

Yes, I think is that more of an issue with rolled tubes. Roper wrote about this back in the 1880's. With our welded boilers and blowing down with no fire meaning the shell and tubes are the same temperature somewhere around 200 degrees, I can't see how it could be all that harmful.

One inch of steel will expand 0.00000645" for every degree Fahrenheit.

30" X 150 degrees X .00000645 = .029"

Even with the boiler completely blown down which takes about 3-4 minutes, it still takes time to cool to ambient which it does slowly. I just don't see any harm in it. I may be wrong, I'll find out

The first time I took the tug out, not knowing how or where to blow down, I got inside the boat and had someone stand outside to make sure no one got around the steam. I opened both blow downs and it was quite a loud spectacle. When the steam cleared there were two huge craters in the gravel parking lot under the boat . Now I blow down as soon as the boat is on the trailer still in the water, makes a loud rumbling noise, but that's it. Then open try cocks and get it out of the water quick before a vacuum forms and sucks water back in.

-Ron

[Lopez Mike]

It's one of my favorite peace disturbers at the loading ramp. All the wuffos are standing around with scratching their heads and I say at least once, "Hope it doesn't blow up." Then I dump the blowdown. Then help them find their dogs (and wives).