kitchen rudder

[barts]

The reduction in forward performance doesn't seem to be readily measurable; the poor efficiency in reverse is a concern, perhaps; Otter steers so badly at low speeds in reverse I'd trade some speed for better steering control.... besides, the engine could still reverse; I just would prefer to dock with the engine ticking over steadily in one direction. Yes, the engine would still have reverse - but I'd much prefer to dock w/o wondering if the engine will actually reverse this time.

If those Disneyland steamboats -or Dodo - had a rudder like this, they might still be steam, since the uniflow's difficulty in starting and reversing is neatly sidestepped.

I'll definitely make sure we can go to a conventional rudder if we need to - but I'd sure like to be able to spin a big steamer around in her own length.

One thing I'm also considering, esp. after barely clearing some mooring lines out of Otter's prop, is a English canal-boat style hatch to access the prop from the top of the boat rather than going for a swim. That seems like a worthwhile feature whatever sort of underwater appendages one's boat is sporting....

- Bart

[fredrosse]

As far as propulsion efficiency goes, some of us even use paddlewheels, obsolete for more than 100 years, and just want to see the engine rocking and rolling slowly. So go for the Kitchen rudder, certainly an interesting concept, and sort of like having a directional thruster at the stern, something we probably all wish for at times.

One issue might be the forces required to work the kitchen rudder? On a small launch probably not much forces to move the two pieces together and apart, but on a larger wheel you will probably have on your next boat some mechanical advantage mechanism might be in order. Anyone have any info on this aspect of the Kitchen rudder?

[barts]

One issue might be the forces required to work the kitchen rudder? On a small launch probably not much forces to move the two pieces together and apart, but on a larger wheel you will probably have on your next boat some mechanical advantage mechanism might be in order. Anyone have any info on this aspect of the Kitchen rudder?

Evidently, the forces required in the forward direction are as expected about the same as a regular rudder. Changing from forward to reverse can take some effort, and steering in reverse is definitely unbalanced - the rudder wants to go to one side or the other. All rudders do, but because we generally back slowly it isn't very noticeable, since a normal rudder isn't in the prop slipstream. The Sea Lion will have a big wheel, and likely cable steering, so this may be an issue.

A hydraulic boat steering cylinder on the tiller seems like the best way to shift forward/reverse; a homebrew 12v linear actuator is also quite possible.

- Bart

[Lopez Mike]

Let's see. Needing electricity to maneuver your boat. What could go wrong? (snork!)

And maybe hydraulics.

How much time do you want to spend working on your boat?

Mike

[barts]

Let's see. Needing electricity to maneuver your boat. What could go wrong? (snork!)

And maybe hydraulics.

How much time do you want to spend working on your boat?

Mike

Otter has used electricity to run the fuel pump now for 20+ years. The hydraulics are the (pretty standard)
hydraulic helms used in lots of power (and some sail) boats. Kind of like the brakes on my motorcycle, except
w/ a rotary pump instead of a lever.

We want a boat we can cruise to Victoria, Vancouver, etc. I'd like to be able to control the boat myself; I don't
mind leaving the helm to toss more wood on the fire every so often, but shifting forward and reverse needs
to _work_ from the pilot house.

- Bart

[Lopez Mike]

I know about your fuel pump. Even that makes me nervous (grin).

Funny, coming from a person who makes a living building electromechanical stuff but on my boat, if I can't make it work with my arm, it doesn't get space. I exclude things that don't effect my ability to keep moving like a flashlight and a hand held radio. I even feel insecure about the piezo lighter in my plumber's torch that I use to light the fire. I do carry matches but I am congenitally lazy.

For me, the beauty of my simple steam launch is that is so primordial. As long as I can find some burnable wood and manage to lubricate the engine, I can keep going.

Now the next question I have is, what sort of animal renderings will work for rod and crosshead lubrication? I'm only sort of joking. What if I can't get oil!!

As to being able to control and reverse your engine, that's just levers and push rods and cables and such.

Mike

[barts]

Now the next question I have is, what sort of animal renderings will work for rod and crosshead lubrication? I'm only sort of joking. What if I can't get oil!!

As to being able to control and reverse your engine, that's just levers and push rods and cables and such.

Well, you can try canola or lard oils... but clean the bilges often.

Well, non-powered hydraulics don't bother me... after all, I rely on the water pump working, and that's not much different. This big boat will have an alternator, too.... but perhaps a solar panel as well. Interestingly enough, since it will fire on wood, it's actually easier than Otter.

With a boat this size, carrying a couple of critical spares is definitely easier than on Otter. A spare hypro pump for example. multiple bilge pumps....

<back to working on engine simulation program>

- Bart

[artemis]

There's a gentleman in Texas by the name of Warren Caldwell who has a Kitchen Rudder on his boat and has extensive experience. He told me that she is the first boat he's operated that will "back in an absolutely straight line" (who cares about efficiency going astern!). Gene Goebel (former owner of Tiny Power) has ridden in this boat and verifies same. There's also another subscriber to Steamboating Magazine who has built a Kitchen Rudder for his boat and offered to design same for any one who requests and sends the appropriate info. If you're interested I'll send the emails for both of the above. There's also an article in an 2006 - 2008 copy of Steamboating - I'll look it up if you can't find it. The Kitchen Rudder was used by small (under 50') British Navy boats until recent (1950s) times. The model steamboat builders use it as it makes reversing easy. Weston Farmer's book "From My Old Boat Shop" has a chapter devoted to this. "Westy" was very enamored of it.

Make sure your transom is very sturdy construction. "Showing off" by going from full ahead to full astern at 9 knots or stopping completely in one boat length (Her Majesty's Navy conducted tests on this, as did many a cox'n) requires a strong transom. Lack of same can create a need to "Pick up the free-floating transom and rudder" and/or "quickly filling the large hole where the transome was to prevent sinking".

The advent of reversing gears for gasoine/dismal engines made this an invention that "came to late" (developed in the very early "teens"). Although there is a fairly recent patent "improvement" that ducts the reverse water flow forward like the water jet drives. I think it complicates with no real performance improvement.

[barts]

There's a gentleman in Texas by the name of Warren Caldwell who has a Kitchen Rudder on his boat and has extensive experience. He told me that she is the first boat he's operated that will "back in an absolutely straight line" (who cares about efficiency going astern!). Gene Goebel (former owner of Tiny Power) has ridden in this boat and verifies same. There's also another subscriber to Steamboating Magazine who has built a Kitchen Rudder for his boat and offered to design same for any one who requests and sends the appropriate info. If you're interested I'll send the emails for both of the above. There's also an article in an 2006 - 2008 copy of Steamboating - I'll look it up if you can't find it. The Kitchen Rudder was used by small (under 50') British Navy boats until recent (1950s) times. The model steamboat builders use it as it makes reversing easy. Weston Farmer's book "From My Old Boat Shop" has a chapter devoted to this. "Westy" was very enamored of it.

Make sure your transom is very sturdy construction. "Showing off" by going from full ahead to full astern at 9 knots or stopping completely in one boat length (Her Majesty's Navy conducted tests on this, as did many a cox'n) requires a strong transom. Lack of same can create a need to "Pick up the free-floating transom and rudder" and/or "quickly filling the large hole where the transome was to prevent sinking".

The advent of reversing gears for gasoine/dismal engines made this an invention that "came to late" (developed in the very early "teens"). Although there is a fairly recent patent "improvement" that ducts the reverse water flow forward like the water jet drives. I think it complicates with no real performance improvement.

Thanks for the info, Ron. I ran a few numbers estimating the forces involved; for the 30" - 32" or so diameter rudder the 'Sea Lion' will need for her 28" prop, we will see rudder forces of about 2500 lbs if we slam it into reverse while surfing down a wave at 10 knots w/ the engine valve gear in full overload. Given that the rudder is supported through the hull on the top and the bottom via a sturdy metal extension of the keel we should be ok. We can fab the rudder either out of stainless or steel and have it hot-dipped although preventing electrolysis w/ the latter and the rudder shafts will be trickier... but I trust steel more than stainless.

- Bart

[guyvapeur]

Barts:

I for one would like to see the kitchen rudder in operation. I had decided that Orion would have a kitchen rudder. I had a stationary engine and I had taken time to sketch out and make a mock up for the mechanism. I used a 2000 lb. winch attached to a aluminum bar with a pulley approx. 2 ft. from the winch. The winch cable was taken from the drum, through the pulley and back to the drum. I could then take the motion and by attaching arms, make the rudder clam shut or open. This rudder has not yet been realized because I was able to make a perfectly suitable slip eccentric to reverse my engine.

The only kitchen rudder I have ever seen on an operational boat was a steam powered canoe at Lees Mills some 8 years ago. This set up appeared to have problems in that the rudder was set too far back from the propeller and the builder had added some sheet metal to grab more water.

All top view kitchen rudders I see seem to have a triangular shape at about 90*. I am wondering if the leading edge can be brought forward to add surface area...

I don't have any engineering background and I find it hard to explain things..... its a lot easier in the shop with a couple of pieces of wood and a pencil.

I really do hope to see a kitchen rudder soon.

Guy